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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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GK
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Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J?
      #161683 - 08/06/10 12:36 PM


With my 9x57mm off to the gunsmiths yesterday, I've already started to think about my next one.

Looks like I've been bitten by the big bore bug and since I've recently fallen for the perfection of the M98 design, I'm thinking about building one up in 425WR or 404J.

From all accounts significant effort is required in opening up a M98 for the 404J. I know its not impossible but it looks like a lot of effort and it may end badly if someone doesn't know what they are doing.

So I have started to think about the 425WR. Early indications suggest that it may have feeding issues due to the significantly rebated rim, however I would like to hear from anyone who has actually modified a M98 for this cartridge. I my mind, a rebated rim should still feed better than a belted rim dragging on things.

What magazine is required as it appears that the 425WR is only about 0.3mm longer than the OAL of a 9.3x62mm?

Regards

George

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eagle27
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: GK]
      #161685 - 08/06/10 04:04 PM

GK

I don't think opening up a standard M98 is too difficult for a 404J. This has been done countless times. My 404J started life as a Oberndorf Type A sporter in 10.75x68 and was opened up to the 10.75x73 (404J). Feeds like a hot knife through butter. Holds 3 in the standard magazine.

Your post almost implies the 404J is a belted case which of course it is not so maybe you are just commenting in general about belted cases. The 404J is the classic designed case for dangerous game bolt rifles, with a long neck and gentle shoulder taper to ensure smooth and positive feeding from the magazine. I would imagine it must be one of the easiest cases to get to feed correctly in a modified Mauser and the head size is only a smidgen larger than the standard magnum case head size so no problems with opening up the bolt face.

You would not be disappointed with a 404J in a standard M98. Others that post here have done this so hopefully they will help you decide.

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GK
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: eagle27]
      #161686 - 08/06/10 05:24 PM

Eagle27,
Yes I was just commenting in general about belted cartridges as even they work OK so a rebated rim should not be overly problematic.

Personally the ballistics of the 404J are better suited as I do not need anything more than this. I was just put off by the fact that it appears that significant work is required so I was contemplating the 425WR as it looks like I can minimise the work somewhat.

Mods for 404J
1)Magazine
2)Rear of action and posible front of action opened up
3)Feed ramp
4)Feed rails widened
5)Possibly ejector box mods/relocation

Mods for the 425WR
1)Feed ramp
2)Feed rails widened

Magazine should be OK as it appears only a smidge longer than the 9.3x62mm.

Comparing the OAL of the two it appears the 404J is a bit over 5mm longer.

How has your standard mag been lengthened.

Cost of doing the work is one thing, but in my mind, evertime something is modified, the reliability (and strength) can be effected.

Its very early stages for me on this one, so I can go either way (or even something else)

George

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Con
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: GK]
      #161691 - 08/06/10 07:20 PM

George,
Let's start from the basics to make the project viable, where will you get a 425WR reamer from in Australia? If you have to buy one, then better to put the money towards a 404Jeffery.

Better yet ... send it to TSE and rechamber/barrel for the 10.75x68Mauser. A 400gr will still wing its way at 2100fps or original Kynoch 404Jeffery ballistics.
Cheers...
Con

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GK
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: Con]
      #161695 - 08/06/10 08:22 PM

Con, obviously I had assumed (incorrectly) that I was not the first to do this and there would be reamers available.

However, I have not priced a 425WR reamer but assuming its similar to others, would this not still be less than half of what it would cost to get a custom magazine for the 404J?

I have not discounted the 10.75x68mm, its my plan C if it all gets too hard.

I also have not ruled out stumbling across BRNO 602 or even the Enfield P14/M17

I just want to get all the facts together before I make a choice.

George

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Con
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: GK]
      #161728 - 09/06/10 05:53 AM

George,
Reamer and headspace guages may set you back up to US$300 depending on who makes your reamer. Lets assume at least half that so US$150 for the reamer alone. Another US$150 for the dies ... so there's at least US$300 in expenses before you start. Now add brass costs for say 50 pieces and only one source of projectiles locally ... maybe two actually ... I'd have to check.

Call Sprinter Arms as they're local to you. Ask whether he'll make a 0.435" barrel and whether he has a reamer. That's your only barrel source locally and he may have the reamer.

The rebated rim is quite extreme and may cause issues ... but there are ways around that if your willing to think outside the box. You magazine box/rails will still need to be widened, but by going 425WR you avoid having to lengthen. That's a miniscule saving in the whole scheme of things.
Cheers...
Con

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VonGruff
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: Con]
      #161732 - 09/06/10 07:19 AM

GK, you could always do what I did and get a chambered barrel from MAB in 404 Jeffery and the cost of a reamer is not on the table. I built mine on a 52 FN Colombian and used the mag with a few modifications, some of which you can do yourself even with handtools. EX Mil follower used and functions flawlessly. Sides of mag milled and rails re-shaped. Performance is excellent andf the only thing I would change if I did it again would be to use a lighter profiled barrel using a no 5 instead of the no 7.

PM sent.

Von Gruff.

--------------------
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12

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GK
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: VonGruff]
      #161744 - 09/06/10 11:02 AM

Von Gruff,
Thanks for your post.
PM recieved and reply sent.
George

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eagle27
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: GK]
      #161752 - 09/06/10 05:14 PM

GK

I don't know how the lengthening modification was done on my standard M98 Mauser for the 404J cartridge as I bought the rifle in its current configuration. Every part including the stock is originally numbered so it looks like the mag box has been lengthened and the feed ramp shortened but nothing new added. Maybe some work has been done at the rear of the action but without a stock standard Mauser in hand I can't compare.

One of the reasons I would go with the 404J is that it is a cartridge that survived the down turn in the 70's and 80's after Kynoch ceased manufacture of ammunition leaving only RWS in business and Norma providing some special runs of ammunition for other companies such as Parker Hale.

IMO the 404J is now leading the charge in resurgence of the British and German cartridges for big game hunting and components are readily available from many manufacturers including those in the USA. The 10.75x68 is a good cartridge but not so versatile as the 404J if wanting or needing to load up a bit. The 425WR has always been a bit of an odd ball even though it enjoyed a fine reputation as a killer cartridge.

I see Von Gruff has entered the discussion, him and I correspond regularly and have swapped data and projectiles for our 404Js. VG has made himself a magnificent shooting 404J from a standard Mauser and I would have no hesitation in standing shoulder to shoulder with him facing a charging animal while he has that DG gun in his hands.

Good luck with whatever you decide to go with and keep us posted.

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GK
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: eagle27]
      #161767 - 09/06/10 09:00 PM

Thanks for everyones replies, especially Von Gruff for putting the 404J into a more realistic perpective.

I have come to the conlusion that the 425WR isn't as good as it appears on paper otherwise more people would be using it.

For a night or so the the 425 Express (slightly shortened 300 win mag) was looking pretty good and the 404J is still up there as the best option.

I will now go away and check a few prices, do a bit more reading and have a bit of a think about it all.

Regards

George

PS I'll also fess up to being tempted by the 416-284 McPherson. Very impressive ballistics for a short cart. I really like the 284 and have a zkk 601 waiting for the right project.

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Con
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: GK]
      #161811 - 10/06/10 07:49 AM

GK,
Shame you don't want a 375-284. I have a spare set of Redding dies excess to needs. If it must be a 0.423" ... contact Redding directly as they'll open 416Ruger dies at minimal cost, then grab a 0.423" neck/throater and follow a 416Ruger reamer into your barrel.

The 423Ruger has been built, trialled and is a nice option in a standard length action with minimal modifications.
Cheers...
Con

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450_Ackley
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: Con]
      #161816 - 10/06/10 08:31 AM

Pardon my ignorance, but what will a 423 Ruger do that a 416 Ruger won't?

DC.

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Con
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #161818 - 10/06/10 11:42 AM

DC,
Absolutely nothing other than fit a standard length action with nil alterations other than bolt face and some rail massaging ... but then what will a 404Jeffery do that a 416Rigby, 416Ruger or 416Taylor wont?

Just another option given that he threw in that's he'd considered a 425Express ... which I also think can be built pretty damn cheaply ... more so than the 404Jeffery.
Cheers...
Con

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Cinghiale
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: Con]
      #161820 - 10/06/10 12:30 PM

GK,

I have a 404 on a standard length Win Mod 70 action. I love it, yeah it took a little bit of work but by god is it worth it! I know its not a Mauser but its still bloody good.

You will have no trouble getting brass and dies for a 404 there are 4 manufacturers to get them from in Australia (pretty sure Bertrum make 404 brass too). A stack cheaper than a 425 as well.

Not that hard to modify actions to suit what you are after.

Mild on the shoulder

The 404 is a classic calibre that can be loaded from 300 to 450 grains fairly easily. It is easy to get to feed as previously mentioned and has a truck load of nostalgia that some of these new age cartridges will never achieve.

Note that I have nothing against any cartridge except the 378 Wby Mag.

Regards and good luck,

MOG

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Huvius
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: Cinghiale]
      #161823 - 10/06/10 02:24 PM

Quote:

Note that I have nothing against any cartridge except the 378 Wby Mag.



2nd That one!

IMO, either is a total classic and certainly capable of anything asked of them.
I would lean toward the 404 but really, if you are not planning on a LOT of shooting, you probably wouldn't regret either. In reality, both were originally designed for use in a std. length action. The early Jeffs were all on std length actions and I can't remember if I have even seen a 425 on any other action.
In practical terms, there is nothing between the two - not a bad choice to be pondering - maybe one of each!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by Huvius (10/06/10 02:26 PM)

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450_Ackley
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: Con]
      #161824 - 10/06/10 04:26 PM

Con,
I suppose my point was that at least a 416 Ruger is a factory cartridge, factory brass, cheaper reloading dies, correct headstamp for Africa etc etc etc, whereas a "423 Ruger" has got problems written all over it in those respects. Of course the classic 404 Jeffery does away with many of the above problems as well.

If it was me, I'd go for the 416 Ruger, even just out of shear ease, but being a cast bullet shooter, that is always in my mind also, and 423 moulds and gas-checks, sizer dies are a lot harder if not impossible to obtain over 416 diameter versions.

Just my 2 cents worth.
DC

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ozhunter
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #161825 - 10/06/10 04:55 PM

I looks like little would need to be done to the action for the 425. But sorting out the feeding of the magazine might be fun thought.
A lot (but not all) of the Westley Richards 425s have two stainless clips on eater side of the action and unless the Gunsmith has knowledge or experience with this, then 404 might be a more practical option.
A view of one feeding clip for the .425WR


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Con
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: ozhunter]
      #161827 - 10/06/10 05:24 PM

DC
I hear you ... factory cartridges will always beat wildcats ... but there's a special passion that goes with using a wildcat cartridge.

For cheap thrills and if headstamp isn't an issue ... make your 404Jeffery brass from 375RUM. Its worked for others at half the cost of 'real brass'.

Open the bolt face to 0.532" and that same RUM case can be used to form a bastardised 425WR that will feed light years ahead of the original.
Cheers...
Con

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450_Ackley
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: Con]
      #161829 - 10/06/10 05:38 PM

Con,
I hear you too, I have a few wildcats in the stable as well, 22 K Hornet, 308 Ackley Improved, 450 Ackley Mag, I suppose 338-06 (sort of)!

DC

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Con
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #161836 - 10/06/10 08:06 PM

DC,
Hmmm ... 222Rimmed AI, 303/25, 303/27, 458AccRel, 458B&M, 223AI ... planning a switch-barrel Stevens 200 in 375/08 and 270/08, shares in a 35/300RCM (358CRG) reamer, dies for 416Taylor, 30/284, 6/284, 375/284 ...

When the bug bites ... it bites hard!
Cheers...
Con

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450_Ackley
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: Con]
      #161892 - 11/06/10 05:55 AM

Con, you win! I'd have to call you a "hard-core wildcat freak!!"

DC

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GK
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #161919 - 11/06/10 01:05 PM


It looks like I now have too many options to think about. Either way, the 425WR idea has been binned.

I'll compile all the info into a table and ponder the numbers. The 416 Ruger was one I was unware of even though I have the latest copy of COTW.

Its dimensions are trim and ballistics appear excellent, but I'm always a bit cautious of all the new cartriges that keep appearing. Is this likely to be available in the future or is it another 376 steyr?

George

PS Con, You obviously have a soft spot for the 284Win as well. I've got a 6mm-284 fly gun and have .338-284 dies etc for an upcomming project. Will propably also get a "straight" 284 in the future. These are all the rage with the F class shooters.

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: Huvius]
      #161923 - 11/06/10 04:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Note that I have nothing against any cartridge except the 378 Wby Mag.



2nd That one!



I may have missed previous threads on this, but what is/are the issue/s with the 378 Wby Mag? I haven't ever seen one and am just curious.

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450_Ackley
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #161924 - 11/06/10 04:32 PM

The 378 Weatherby has a reputation for having quite heavy recoil, more of a sharp hard kick than the slower recoil of other big bore calibres.
I believe it to not be that justified, yep, it kicks hard, but it's by no means unmanageable.

DC

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Con
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Re: Moddifying a M 98 for 425 WR or 404J? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #161956 - 12/06/10 06:57 AM

378Wby ... I'll own one eventually. Already have dies. Mine will be on a Ruger No1 with 28" barrel!!

GK,
Unfortunately ... all the guys I know shooting a 416Ruger currently are using opened 375Ruger brass. Got half shares in one of those reamers too! Mate and I brought it in early so he could rechamber his Howa 416Taylor. It's a very good cartridge ... but very similar to the 416Taylor in reality. Maybe 50-75fps difference. A fortnight ago I played with a Ruger Alaskan in 416Ruger and its a lovely package! I'd just replace the stock as I hate the Hogue's.

The 416Rigby I owned briefly in a CZ American. Brilliant rifle, weight was just right for that level of 'power' and recoil from the cartridge. The 375s are too heavy and the 458s (owned 2) are feeding troubles galore. I sold the 416Riby as powder disappears fast when your burning 100gr for 2400fps. Mate bought it, added another 15gr and now gets 400gr at 2700fps ... he's loving it!

I turned away from the 416s as the 458AccRel gives me a 400gr at 2580fps, plus a 500gr at 2350fps (I knock 50 fps off as there's no need to run them that fast) ... hence I feel no need to add a 416cal to my safe. But I have got a No1 in 450/400NE to stay 'in touch' with the 40cals.
Cheers...
Con

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