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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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Farkey
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Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 40
Loc: Pacific NW
1903 Mannlicher
      #160213 - 10/05/10 02:48 AM

I guess I'm behind the times but I just discovered that there is a Mannlicher forum here. so I thought I'd show off my 1903. This one is an unrestored original gun that I bought from Westley Richards about 8 years ago (a mannlicher collector sold a couple of rifles to them). At the time I paid a pretty penny for it but I wanted the best 03 that I could buy. I think its worth far more than I paid for it now.

This one honestly looked unfired when I got it, maybe it was shot a few times as it had some old kynoch still in the butttrap. Westley Richards thought it was unfired. The rifle is a long bbl, special model with a 19" bbl (using my measurements), case hardening is still slightly visible on trigger guard. Bore is perfect. I have since shot the gun and its shoots as nice as it looks.







Edited by CptCurl (10/05/10 08:54 PM)

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88MauSporter
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: Farkey]
      #160216 - 10/05/10 05:23 AM

Beautiful and un-altered. So many have been "gunsmithed" to improve "something". They are wonderfully designed rifles and carbines intended for the serious stalking hunter. Good shooting!

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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lancaster
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #160229 - 10/05/10 02:02 PM

it can go better

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: lancaster]
      #160235 - 10/05/10 06:10 PM

Beautiful

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #160240 - 10/05/10 08:54 PM

Oh that is nice! How does it shoot?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #160244 - 11/05/10 12:05 AM

Hi Farkey--You certainly did land on "the nicest 1903" you could find--they're rare enough in any condition, but almost nonexistent in the shape yours is in. Was the cleaning rod in the trap also? There's a full-stocked rifle (22" bbl) at Wm. Larkin Moore right now advertised as all original and unaltered (with the exception of a Lyman sight), in what appears to be comparable condition to yours, for 6k. That might be a bit high, but a guy could look a long, long time for a like replacement. Did you buy yours through Westley in the UK, or here in America? If you haven't already, you might try running the serial # on the Griffin and H. research page--if the gun ever passed through Abercrombie and Fitch, you can learn some interesting history about it. If you have time, could you post a close-up pic of the forend checkering? I need to have mine cleaned out (it's the later hourglass pattern like yours), and the checkerer might find a good visual helpful.
Best,
Malcolm

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Farkey
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Reged: 21/09/03
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: malco]
      #160292 - 12/05/10 01:00 AM

Here are a few more including some CU of the front checkering

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dons
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: Farkey]
      #160296 - 12/05/10 03:29 AM

Interesting that it has the longer barrel. I understand that there were other options such as a full length barrel rib and pop-up cheekpiece. Beautiful 03.

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Rule303
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: dons]
      #160449 - 14/05/10 07:34 PM

Farkey that is one beautiful rifle and the conditions is incredible. How does it shoot.

Cheers
Greg

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: dons]
      #160456 - 14/05/10 10:06 PM

Quote:

Interesting that it has the longer barrel. I understand that there were other options such as a full length barrel rib and pop-up cheekpiece. Beautiful 03.



DonS,

Here are some photos of a beautiful M1903 with full ribbed barrel:









Interesting and very rare.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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KurtC
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Reged: 28/08/07
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Loc: NJ, USA
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #160458 - 14/05/10 11:21 PM

Farkey,

Beautiful rifle. It appears to have a post-1924 stock (a little heavier than the original and with a point pattern for the front checkering). It would be interesting to know the rifle date of manufacture and whether the factory serial numbered the stock to the rifle.

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Farkey
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Reged: 21/09/03
Posts: 40
Loc: Pacific NW
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: KurtC]
      #160461 - 15/05/10 12:00 AM

I don't know the date of manufacture, Griffin/Howe does not have a record of this rifle in their database.. My serial number is 153XX I have never pulled the stock off as I don't want to screw up the screws :-)

Edited by Farkey (15/05/10 12:02 AM)

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KurtC
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Loc: NJ, USA
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: Farkey]
      #160462 - 15/05/10 01:16 AM

Get yourself a set of Thin Bits from Brownells. You'll need them to clean/oil the rifle properly and keep the action screws snug. http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=425/Product/MAGNA_TIP_reg__THIN_BIT_SET

Early rifles have a date code on the underside of the barrel. The stocks are numbered under the front receiver ring

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malco
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Reged: 11/02/09
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Loc: montana, usa
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: KurtC]
      #160504 - 15/05/10 02:44 PM

Kurt's right, you should have appropriate drivers--if the stock's loose, it can crack behind the tang on recoil. I've got thin Brownell's and the Wheeler gunsmithing drivers, either option is a good one.
Thanks for the checkering pics...
Malcolm

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: malco]
      #160526 - 16/05/10 12:39 AM

KurtC,

Nice 1950 on GB!

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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TexasJohn
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Reged: 06/04/10
Posts: 166
Loc: Texas
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: malco]
      #160527 - 16/05/10 12:42 AM

"Appears to be a post 1924 stock".......I was once told by a collector that M-S changed from the bolt release that has the round "button" on it to the smooth curved one in 1924; however, I have never been able to confirm that bit of information. I have two 1903's that have the early release on them. The serial number on 1903's don't appear to make sense sometimes. From production codes on the bottom my "later gun" has a four digit serial number and my "early" gun has an 11,XXX number. If anyone has definitive information on this I would love to know.

John

Edited by TexasJohn (16/05/10 12:43 AM)

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KurtC
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Reged: 28/08/07
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Loc: NJ, USA
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: TexasJohn]
      #160530 - 16/05/10 03:13 AM

Early rifles should have a date code on the barrel and receiver, below the wood. For example, in the borrowed photo below, the code of 711.07 would indicate the 711th rifle proofed in 1907.

Serial numbers don't necessarily correspond to model or date of manufacture.



Edited by CptCurl (16/05/10 01:25 PM)

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Loc: middle of Germany
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: KurtC]
      #160532 - 16/05/10 04:37 AM

Steyr changed to the rectangular bolt release with the MODELS 1924 and 1925, the "Hochrasanzstutzen" = high velocity rifles for cartridges like the .30-06, 7x64, 8x60, 9.3x62. Up to WW2 they continued to make their proprietary models 1903/6.5x54, 1905/9x56, 1908/8x56, 1910/9.5x57 with the original round-knob style bolt release. So the style of bolt release is not useable for dating a 1903!

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Edited by kuduae (16/05/10 04:39 AM)

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: malco]
      #162109 - 15/06/10 07:34 AM

Quote:

There's a full-stocked rifle (22" bbl) at Wm. Larkin Moore right now advertised as all original and unaltered (with the exception of a Lyman sight), in what appears to be comparable condition to yours, for 6k. That might be a bit high, but a guy could look a long, long time for a like replacement.



Would anybody hazard an opinion of what that rifle would be worth? It's gone from the website now. Sure looked like a cherry specimen. Would it be worth $6k?

I'd like to find a really nice M1903. What does one pay for such?

_____________________________________________________

Another M-S question:

There was an interesting M-S specimen on GunBroker just recently. Can anybody identify what exactly it is?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=172716299

I read the description, which says, "THIS IS VERY SIMPLY A COLLECTOR'S CREATION MADE IN GERMANY CIRCA 1910." I thought that was funny because these are Austrian guns. But the photo looks like the receiver ring is stamped "Made in Germany". What's that all about?

And the caliber. It's advertised as a 6.5x54mm. However, the receiver ring clearly is stamped "Cal. 6.5 Norm." Would that be the 6.5mm Mauser? It's not marked Mod. 1903.

Then there's the style of the stock, with the close grip. The full length forend is clearly detachable. That would normally be indicative of a takedown rifle, but this rifle doesn't have the little takedown lever in front of the trigger guard.

Obviously I have a lot to learn. Any help will be appreciated.



Curl
_____________________________________________________


I am editing this post to include photos of the interesting rifle listed on GunBroker.com:

























Edited by CptCurl (16/06/10 10:00 AM)

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Peconga
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Reged: 26/06/07
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Loc: Arizona USA
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #162120 - 15/06/10 12:26 PM

Quote:



Another M-S question:

There was an interesting M-S specimen on GunBroker just recently. Can anybody identify what exactly it is?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=172716299

I read the description, which says, "THIS IS VERY SIMPLY A COLLECTOR'S CREATION MADE IN GERMANY CIRCA 1910." I thought that was funny because these are Austrian guns. But the photo looks like the receiver ring is stamped "Made in Germany". What's that all about?

And the caliber. It's advertised as a 6.5x54mm. However, the receiver ring clearly is stamped "Cal. 6.5 Norm." Would that be the 6.5mm Mauser? It's not marked Mod. 1903.

Then there's the style of the stock, with the close grip. The full length forend is clearly detachable. That would normally be indicative of a takedown rifle, but this rifle doesn't have the little takedown lever in front of the trigger guard.

Obviously I have a lot to learn. Any help will be appreciated.

Curl



A few observations on the Mannlicher Schoenauer on GunBroker:

1) The roll mark "Made in Germany" on the front receiver ring suggests that it was manufactured after the "Anschluss" (annexation) of Austria by Germany in March, 1938. The fact that it is so marked in English would indicate that it was intended for export, presumably to the USA. The date stamp under the barrel would probably confirm this; I have no idea where the seller came up with the manufacture date of 1910.

2) The rifle shown has a full length stock and is fitted with a shotgun style triggerguard, double triggers, and tang mounted folding peep sight. It does not appear to be a takedown model, as it lacks the release lever in front of the triggerguard, and has no provision on the front end for a removable pin through the front sling swivel. All the takedown M-S rifles that I have seen over the years are half-stock rifles with a military style triggerguard.

3) The front end of the forearm appears to have been cut off immediately in front of the front sight, and then re-attached with a black spacer glued between the two parts. This is commonly called a "Duffle Cut" which referred to the practice of returning G.I.s cutting the stock of a war trophy rifle so the parts would fit into a military issue canvas "Duffle Bag" to ship it home.

4) The caliber marking "KAL. 6.5MM NORM" appears where one would usually see "M.1903" stamped; most (but evidently not all) pre-war 1903 (and 1905, 1908, and 1910) M-S rifles have the caliber marked on the underside of the barrel, not on top of the receiver ring. Markings were different on pre-war High Velocity (long action) models and post-war M-S rifles. The actual chambering is an interesting question; presumably it refers to the standard 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridge, although I suppose it is theoretically possible that it refers to the similar (but not identical) 6.5x54 Mauser cartridge sometimes seen on commercial Oberndorf rifles based on the "Kurz" Mauser 98 action. Not likely, but possible...

5) Although the horrible photos make a true assessment of condition difficult, based on what can be seen, in my opinion the starting price of US$2200 and "Buy-Now" price of $2750 are about twice the fair market value for this rifle. Since it remains unsold, it appears that other potential buyers concur.

Cheers,
Peconga in Boise, Idaho USA

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malco
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: Peconga]
      #162124 - 15/06/10 02:25 PM

Howdy Captain--
Peconga nailed it on the "Made in Germany" tag--the late pre-war rifles reflect Austrian annexation into Nazi Germany. However, with the exception of the M1925, the chambering ordinarily does not appear as a factory stamping on most pre-war models, as the "Model" itself designates appropriate chambering (M1903=6.5x54, M1908=8x56, etc.) 6.5 NORM I believe replaced the "M1903" stamp on some late pre-war guns because Steyr was by then commonly chambering in non-proprietary cartridges, including other 6.5 rounds. Seems like somebody posted on here not long ago that 6.5 NORM is 6.5x54--hopefully someone will verify.

The "about 1910" description is totally unfounded misinformation by the seller--the gun's from the 1930s. Paconga is also right about the sawn stock, a not uncommon feature of GI souvenir rifles. And yes, it's overpriced by the standard of other rifles in better condition that have sold recently.

As for the Wm. Larkin Moore gun, someone may well have shelled out the 6k. 1903s in that condition are exceedingly rare. However, if you're patient you can find a perfectly nice, intact shooter with good bore for about 2k, maybe less on a good day. The only thing you'll regret is that one won't be enough!
Best of luck,
Malcolm

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Igorrock
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: malco]
      #162129 - 15/06/10 05:25 PM

Yes, I have Mannlicher Schönauer m1908 with text "8 mm Norm" which means in this case 8x56 M-S.

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kuduae
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: Igorrock]
      #162152 - 16/06/10 07:51 AM

From March 13, 1938 to April 1945 Austria was part of Hitler's 3rd Reich,hence the inscriptions "Made in Germany" and "Waffenfabrik Steyr". Of course German rulings were to be followed by Steyr too. The German 1940 proof law required, for the first time, all guns being marked with the cartridge designation instead of model numbers or cryptic bore dimensions. So Steyrcalled their old proprietary 6.5 and 8mm cartridges Normal to tell them apart from the "high velocity" chamberings of the M1925, where they stamped "8x60 Magnum" even in the years before.There ought to be German eagle/N proofmarks and a proof date below the woodline too.
The stock of this rifle with higher comb and more curved pistol grip already resembles the later M1950 design. The sliding tang safety is certainly an aftermarket addition. The parted foreend seems to be a quite well repaired GI duffle cut. Note that Steyr used the old-style bolt-stop on M1903 actions up to 1945. They had to put the new, rectangular design on the long-cartridge models 1924 and 25 because they had to open up bolt travel to the rear. The old bolt-stop design would have ended up with it's rear end hanging out in the air, so they had to change the design to mount the spring in front of the bolt stop cut in the receiver.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: kuduae]
      #162157 - 16/06/10 10:01 AM

Many thanks for the explanations so far. Take note that I edited my entry above to include the photos from GunBroker so they can be preserved here for discussion.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5271
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: 1903 Mannlicher [Re: CptCurl]
      #162158 - 16/06/10 10:07 AM

I must say, if this is a "Duffel Cut" made so the full-length stock would fit in a duffel bag, it was repaired exquisitely. I'm having a great deal of trouble thinking this stock was not originally made that way. Look at how all the lines of checkering line up perfectly.



Also, each side of the joint appears to be lined with ebony.

Very interesting example, in my opinion. I'd like to see it in hand.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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