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carpediem4570
.300 member


Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo?
      #158233 - 05/04/10 04:41 AM

Greetings from the Great White North, Alberta:

I am finally going to the range tommorrow to test loads for my Antonio Zoli 9.3x74R DR side by side.

If you have not been following along, a quick explanation is in order. I purchased the above rifle three years ago; very lightly used in the box. The test target with the rifle shows two shots touching at 100 metres using the RWS H Mantel 16.7 gram, (258 grains), bullet. According to factory balistics, the round is leaving the barrel at 750 metres per second (2460 feet per second).

As I had no access to the factory rounds used for regulation, I started building loads using the Nosler Accubond 250 grain bullet. Using several powders and several charge weights, the best I could do was the right barrel hitting dead centre and the left barrel three inches left and nine inches high. A far cry from the factory target.

To make a long story short, I found a box of factory RWS ammo in 16.7 grams and am going to the range tommorow to see if I can duplicate the factory target.

NOW FOR THE QUESTION: Has anyone here cronographed the above RWS round to find out the true velocity?

After reading "Shooting the British Double Rifle, 3rd Edition", Graeme Wright suggests loading rounds close to the factory velocity, if not just a touch under, to duplicate the factory round trajectory.

Graeme Wright also said that many DR's can be set up to shoot different weights of bullets with very good accuracy if you stay close to the factory velocity of said round.

Comments, questions and opinions always welcome.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"


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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
Posts: 1195
Loc: DELTONA FLORIDA
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158243 - 05/04/10 06:20 AM

my 9.3 OU uses a norms 286 gr to regulate a sxs would be great buti got a sweet deal on the high grade 9.3.coming son will be a 3006 with a extra set of 20's the 450 400 turned out to be a reloaders dream with inch or better groups zoli has great barrels im a zoli fan you have pictures

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: bwananelson]
      #158244 - 05/04/10 07:07 AM


Bullet shape / profile / bearing is or maybe another factor
that can affect regulation.

You should be able to get at least 2 bullet weights to shoot to the same point of aim.

I have a Zoli SxS in 9.3 - don't shoot it much but it is dead accurate.


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #158248 - 05/04/10 08:07 AM

Nine inches vertical spread, thats much, i really hope i works out for you with the RWS.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 450_366]
      #158249 - 05/04/10 08:26 AM

I'll try to chrono them today or tomorrow as I have some 258 H-Mantle for my FN Mauser with 25" Lothar Walther Barrel.

Edited by tophet1 (05/04/10 08:37 AM)


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404bearslayer
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Reged: 28/04/09
Posts: 226
Loc: Germany
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: tophet1]
      #158251 - 05/04/10 09:53 AM


You might have to stay with the RWS bullet. It's a somewhat unusual design, in that it has a copper-plated steel jacket and two cores of different hardness. The Accubond will have very different friction properties, which will affect regulation.

You might have better luck with Woodleigh solids, Degol Steel Jacket softs or something like that, which have at least the same type jacket.

RWS ammo uses RWS primers, the closest equivalent in character (if you cannot get them) would be the Winchester primers.

Powder used in RWS ammo is Rottweil - Norma powders and the Alliant reloader series are of the same kin (all made by BOFOR, Sweden).

Generally speaking, I have experienced RWS ammo to be from 30 to 150 f/s below stated speed.

Edited by 404bearslayer (05/04/10 10:01 AM)


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carpediem4570
.300 member


Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 404bearslayer]
      #158262 - 05/04/10 02:26 PM

Thank you for all the tips gentlemen:

One other point of interest; does anyone have a cronographed velocity for the RWS T Mantel
18.5 gram (285 grain) bullet? Factory velocity is marked at 2280 feet per second, but we all know cartridge manufacturers like to inflate their numbers.

Additionally, do any of you side by side Antonio Zoli owners happen to have a manual that came with the rifle? My rifle came in the box with the test target but no instructions.

I will report back tommorow with the results and hopefully some photos.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"


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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158272 - 05/04/10 08:18 PM

RWS Factory 258 H-Mantle rounds fired this PM.

Five rounds from a clean cold barrel went into 0.870" at 100 yards this afternoon. Four holes touching.

FN Mauser 98 25" barrel.

2,435
2,461
2,437
2,440
2,444

I'll let you work out the average and extreme spread etc.

Hope this helps.


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tophet1
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Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: tophet1]
      #158273 - 05/04/10 08:22 PM

Oh, I did work with the 250 Accubond which is quite a 'hard' projectile. A MAX load of 62.5 of 2208/Varget gave 2,642fps.

This was a MAX load and I have discontinued it's use in my rifle


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alexbeer
.333 member


Reged: 10/04/08
Posts: 389
Loc: Tasmania, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158308 - 06/04/10 10:02 AM

285 grain "T" mantle RWS factory 9.3x74R loads.

Fired in my 9.3x74R double (23.5" barrels)
6 shots (3 from each barrel) average of 2235 FPS @ 10 feet from muzzles.
Extreme spread right barrel - 18 fps
Extreme spread left barrel - 15 fps
Day temp 18C (65F)

Point of interest,

Same bullet, same rifle
62.5 grains ADI AR2209 (H4350)
CCI 250 primer
RWS case
O.A.L same as factory round
6 shots (3 from each barrel) average of 2236 FPS @ 10 feet from muzzles.
Extreme spread right barrel - 14 fps
Extreme spread left barrel - 11 fps
Day temp 18C (65F)

Usual loading data caveats apply, I've been reloading for years, my loads, my rifle, start lower and work up to this etc etc

Best

Alex

alexbeer.com


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CHAPUISARMES
.416 member


Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #158313 - 06/04/10 10:43 AM

Hi 500Nitro,

A slight change in question, you say that you have a Zoli side by side Double Rifle. I asked about one from a distributor and on the Zoli website but can not find them only O/U

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

--------------------


"Travel Light, Travel Fast and carry a Big Bore"


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #158318 - 06/04/10 01:26 PM


Mine was a 2nd hand one I purchased a few years ago.

Not sure who brought them in originally and not sure if they
still make them in SxS.

Who is the distributor in Aus now ?


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carpediem4570
.300 member


Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #158326 - 06/04/10 03:53 PM

Hello again Gentlemen:

Chapuisarmes: Anotonio Zoli no longer makes their DR's in side by side configuration. I purchased mine used, in excellent shape. 100% in the box with factory target showing two 16.7 gram h-mantel bullets touching, shot from 100 metres. I thought this would be the best rifle ever.

500 Nitro: What kind of ammo are you using in your Antonio Zoli sxs and what kind of groups are you getting? Is your rifle scoped?

Anyone else who has a Antonio Zoli sxs DR, what kind of ammo and what kind of groups are you getting?

Tophet1: Thanks for the data. I will use it when reloading the next batch.

Alexbeer: thanks for the 285 grain data. I have some 285 grain PRIVI bullets I will load to those velocities.

I was at the range today and tried the Antonio Zoli sxs DR with the factory ammo used to regulate the rifle.



My first shots were at 50 metres. I could not keep the two shots on a peice of paper 8.5 by 14 inches. That was shooting the front trigger (right barrel) first. Then I tried shooting the rear trigger first. The two shots were 4 inches apart horizontally and 3 inches apart vertically.

So I took the rifle to the 100 metre range and again tried shooting the front trigger
(right barrel) first. Again, the spread was bigger than the 8.5 x 14 inch Paper I was using for a target. Again, I then tried the rear trigger (left barrel)first and below is the result.

POINT OF AIM: The square at the centre point of the target, at 0,0.



Two questions; First, Has anyone ever heard of a situation where the gun shoots differently depending on which barrel you shoot first? Second; As I said the factory target shows two bullets touching at 100 metres. The best I could do is what you see. What gives?

I was shooting the rifle from the bench. I was holding the rifle as I would if I were standing. No part of the rifle was touching the rest. Time between shots were about five seconds. The rifle is scoped with a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40. The weather was 13 degrees C. Slight wind from behind.

What do you suggest for trying to tighten the groups? I reload so I can tinker with the rounds.

Interestingly, I shot a few more of the Nosler 250 grain bullets, left barrel first and got a much better group; almost the same as the factory ammo at 50 metres. Didn't have any Nosler ammo left to try at 100 metres.

Any suggestions, comments, concerns are welcome.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

Edited by carpediem4570 (06/04/10 04:07 PM)


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158327 - 06/04/10 04:18 PM


I use reloads. Don't use Factory ammo.


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carpediem4570
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Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #158328 - 06/04/10 04:21 PM

500 Nitro: What is your recipie? Did your rifle come scoped?

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158329 - 06/04/10 04:27 PM

Yes, rifle is scoped. Not sure if it is factory but it works
and is dead accurate.


I don't have my loads handy at present, on another computer that I can't get to.

They are pretty much standard loads, nothing flash, I am NOT
a velocity freak so always keep my reloads away from the Max loads if I can get a DR to regulate below that level.

Zoli SxS's are very light guns so heavy loads will kick in them !!! Just try firing 320gn bullets out of them and you will find out !!!

Edited by 500Nitro (06/04/10 04:29 PM)


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carpediem4570
.300 member


Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #158330 - 06/04/10 04:42 PM

500 Nitro:

Thanks for the info. I guess I will just have to keep working on it. I am not ready to give up on this rifle just yet.

When you get a chance, would you let me know what your bullet weight, powder type and weight and primer are for your loads?

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158331 - 06/04/10 04:47 PM


Sorry, I will re read the thread and try to help you solve the problem.

Bullet weight will be 286 gn and 320 gn Woodleigh's.

Primer will be Fed 210M or 215

Powder type is ADI which you don't get over there so kind of irrelevant.

I actually have some RWS Factory here that I forgot about.
Might try to shoot it off.


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93mouse
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Reged: 17/08/07
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Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158332 - 06/04/10 04:49 PM

Carpediem I believe I remember you got your double without scope and you scoped it recently? If so the error between the barrels might be the result of it. Anyway - looking at the target I'd try to shorten the barrel time first - try to get some 230gr and push them close to 2600fps - see what happens...

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carpediem4570
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Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 93mouse]
      #158334 - 06/04/10 05:07 PM

93 Mouse:

Good to hear from you again.

The scope was added to the gun. I also changed to a heavier Zeiss scope, which I am told may affect accuracy.

What do you mean by "shorten the barrel time."?

I will try a lighter bullet.


500 Nitro:

Thanks for the info. What ADI powder do you use? I have Graeme Wright's book, Shooting the British Double Rifle, and he has a list of the ADI powders coresponding to the North American Powders.

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"


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93mouse
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Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158336 - 06/04/10 05:09 PM

Here is a target from my Merkel and a rough estimation how my rifle corresponds to velocity change ( yours may be different):






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carpediem4570
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Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 93mouse]
      #158337 - 06/04/10 05:22 PM

93 Mouse:

Interesting target. I will next try messing around with different velocities.

Can anyone offer a suggestion why my groups were better when shooting the left barrel first?

Kindest regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: carpediem4570]
      #158338 - 06/04/10 05:29 PM

Quote:

93 Mouse:

Interesting target. I will next try messing around with different velocities.

Can anyone offer a suggestion why my groups were better when shooting the left barrel first?

Kindest regards,

Carpediem






Because double rifles are an entity unto themselves
and don't follow any rule book - except their own !!!


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carpediem4570
.300 member


Reged: 28/06/08
Posts: 219
Loc: Alberta, Canada
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #158339 - 06/04/10 05:34 PM

I haven't had this much heartache since I dated my first girlfriend in University (LOL).
Kindest Regards,

Carpediem

--------------------
Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways-Chrdonnay in one hand-Chocolate in the other-body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WHOO-HOO, WHAT A RIDE!!"


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93mouse
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Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Cronographed velocity of RWS ammo? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #158340 - 06/04/10 05:44 PM

Quote:


Because double rifles are an entity unto themselves
and don't follow any rule book - except their own !!!




exactly - or to put it in math. language - far from linear equation it is at least cubic equation or even more likely a simultaneous one - life is made that way!


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