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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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ar15a292f
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Reged: 25/03/04
Posts: 5
Which cartridge 404 0r 416?
      #15548 - 05/06/04 07:45 AM

If you were building a rifle in the 404/416 class which cartridge would you use, the 416 Remington, 416 Dakota or the 404 Jeffery? The rifle will be based on a 97 Dakota or a 1999 Montana rifle action. I know that the 416 Rigby is the classic 416, but I dont want to use such a large action.

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RLI
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Reged: 01/10/03
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: ar15a292f]
      #15550 - 05/06/04 08:08 AM

.404 Jeffery, .400 H&H
RLI

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Gibbs505
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: RLI]
      #15551 - 05/06/04 09:04 AM

My next rebuild will be for a 404 Jeffrey. If I live that is because my wife will proberly kill me!!

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Nick_Adams
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Reged: 20/12/03
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: Gibbs505]
      #15552 - 05/06/04 09:25 AM

On another forum I read where a guy bought a 300 RUM, which is based on the .404 Jeffrey case. He then "converted" it by having it rebarreled to .404. I think it was a Pac-Nor barrel. He reported that accuracy was great and the mag held 4 rounds. More importantly, there were no feeding problems at all. He was developing several loads for a trip to Africa.

He made the point that by getting the rifle initially in 300 RUM, a .404-based cartridge, the follower's size, feed ramp dimensions, etc., were already compatible with the .404's case. So the sort of reliability issues that often crop up when building a big bore from scratch were absent in his "conversion" project.

I thought it was a neat suggestion for those of us desiring a 404 and looking for a cost-effective way to get a reliable accurate rifle.

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Hauptjäger
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Reged: 03/01/04
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: Nick_Adams]
      #15558 - 05/06/04 02:15 PM

Nick: You bring up a very good point about using a rifle designed to use a .404-based cartridge.

To all: Would anyone suggest a good “starting action” that would not cost an arm and a leg? What are the other .404-based cartridges to look for as a starting point?


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To a point you can never have too much horsepower!

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #15564 - 05/06/04 03:29 PM

A 404. It can be made in a lighter and thus handier rifle than the 416's owing to a shorter case thus a smaller action. My Jeffery weighs just a tad under 8.5 lbs.

I wonder about the claims of a 404 being hard feeding. It was designed to feed like a greased pig and all of the ones I have seen have.

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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: mickey]
      #15665 - 10/06/04 01:06 AM

400 H&H... easy choice.

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bonanza
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #15670 - 10/06/04 04:10 AM

Has H&H released the 400?

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Nick_Adams
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: bonanza]
      #15679 - 10/06/04 10:38 AM

I've seen this "conversion" mentioned at least 3 times now on different boards.

Someone gets a rifle chambered in a 300 RUM - which is a .404-based cartridge and, except for bore size, is dimensionally identical, I believe. Then they get rid of the barrel and have it replaced professionally by a high-grade .404 (.423) tube of whatever length (23" or 24").

Supposedly, beginning this "conversion" with the 300 RUM eliminates a lot of tweaking with the magazine box, mag spring, feed-ramp, etc., since these issues were already resolved when the gun was first built in 300 RUM. (I assume the .404's mag capacity would be the same as the 300 RUM's, but I'm not for sure on that).

Now, does anyone know if Savage still makes their Safari Express rifle in 300 RUM? Ideas, ideas ....

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"Only accurate rifles are interesting."

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mickey
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: Nick_Adams]
      #15685 - 10/06/04 01:47 PM

Nick

I believe it is illegal to make a 404 jeffery on a Savage action. I could be wrong but I don't think so.

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Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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bonanza
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: mickey]
      #15698 - 10/06/04 11:26 PM

How about the good-ole .416 Taylor?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

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Nick_Adams
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: bonanza]
      #15710 - 11/06/04 10:11 AM

Mick:

Hah!

Actually, the reason I mentioned Savage's Safari Express is because it comes with controlled round feed, stainless steel barrelled action and an accu-trigger. Plus, the Savage is available at a reasonable comparative cost as a "base" gun. It's really just a theory at this point, as I only know about this 300 RUM-to-.404 Jeffery "conversion" from what I've read.

What I'd really prefer is for CZ to bring out a 550 Magnum in .404 dressed in the "fancy grade" American stock.

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"Only accurate rifles are interesting."

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atkinson6
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: Nick_Adams]
      #16080 - 22/06/04 02:03 AM

I have both and have used both for years...from a practical standpoint the 416 Rem is the best of the lot...from a nostalgic standpoint the 404 takes the lead..

I'm a romantic I suppose, so my favorite caliber in a bolt gun is the 404 Jefferys, done up right in a classice British rifle or British rifle configuration...

If its plastic, stainless steel, please use the 416...

Results in the field are exactly the same as to killing power, effectiveness, stopability etc...

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atkinson6
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: atkinson6]
      #16081 - 22/06/04 02:13 AM

The CZ is the best action today to build a 404 on...Get it in a 375 and do the conversion, its an easy feed proposition, and it will hold 5 down and one up...

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Nick_Adams
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: atkinson6]
      #16094 - 22/06/04 10:22 AM

Ray - do you think CZ would ever offer the 550 Magnum chambered in .404?

I wonder if Ruger would try it again in their Magnum Rifle (provided they used the correct CIP specs) now that new people are running the company?

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"Only accurate rifles are interesting."

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Hauptjäger
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Reged: 03/01/04
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: atkinson6]
      #16108 - 22/06/04 10:40 PM

Ray
I know I have asked you before about the building a 9.3x64, however after reading this thread, and the others on the .404 I am rethinking the caliber. I have started into talks with a gunmaker and time is drawing near to put the money where my mouth is. I see the gun being used first in Alaska as a bear / moose gun but then who knows… Is the .404 a better choice over the 9.3x64? Thanks to all for their input.


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To a point you can never have too much horsepower!

Hauptjager

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canada
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Reged: 09/05/04
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loading for 7x65 R [Re: Hauptjäger]
      #16110 - 22/06/04 11:26 PM

I am loading for a Zoli o/u 7x65 R. I have loaded 150 noslers with 4350 powder at max. and the gun shoots 5 in. I then shot 139 grn. at max. and the gun shot 8 in. I loaded the min. load 4350 and a 139 grn. and the gun shot 5 in.
I tried 4831 min. to max. with 175,160,150 and 139 and the gun shot 8 in.
I always used more speed or a lighter bullet to get the gun to shoot closer.

I have 3031, 4064, 4320 powder.

This makes no sense.

Any ideas?

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canada
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Reged: 09/05/04
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Loc: Northern Ontario Canada
Re: loading for 7x65 R [Re: canada]
      #16231 - 26/06/04 11:37 AM

I've brought this forward and still am looking for some help with the loads for this gun.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: loading for 7x65 R [Re: canada]
      #16267 - 27/06/04 05:53 PM

canada,
I've used and reloaded 7x65R in O/U doubles here in OZ.

Couple of questions.

Firstly what distance are you shooting at?

Are you shooting with scope or open sights?

How are you steading and holding the gun during shooting?

Is 5 inches the best it has shot?

Are the barrels shooting apart by 5 to 8 inches or are they crossing?

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canada
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Reged: 09/05/04
Posts: 60
Loc: Northern Ontario Canada
Re: loading for 7x65 R [Re: 4seventy]
      #16361 - 30/06/04 08:34 PM

I gave up on the gun and traded it for a 9.3x74R. This was the first double that I could not make shoot. It shot perfect in line and did not cross fire. I had loaded 150 grn Noslers with 55.7 grns of 4350. It did shoot better but was the Max load in the Hornaday manual. The cases fell out and did not stick but I just felt to go any higher with the load was not good.

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canada
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Reged: 09/05/04
Posts: 60
Loc: Northern Ontario Canada
Re: loading for 9.3x74R [Re: canada]
      #16362 - 30/06/04 08:58 PM

Please post any info that you may have on loading.

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Ingwe
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Reged: 08/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: Texas
Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: atkinson6]
      #16517 - 09/07/04 04:10 AM

I have both and have used both for years...from a practical standpoint the 416 Rem is the best of the lot...

So what kind of a cartridge is the 416 Rem? I mean, what is it based on.. where did it come from? And how does it's recoil compare to the 404 Jeffrey? Does it come in a lighter, handier rifle like the 404 Jeffrey or does it need a longer action?

Vincent

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RobertD
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Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 67
Loc: East Bay, CA, USA
Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: Ingwe]
      #16622 - 13/07/04 12:25 AM

The 416 Remington mag is based on their 8mm Remington mag case opened up to 416 diameter. Then, they raised the pressure from the old 416 Rigby levels so they could duplicate the Rigby ballastics exactly. The result is 416 Rigby 400g ballastics and hunting legend in a smaller cartridge.

The only drawback to this is the pressure, as the Remington round has a lot more pressure than the Rigby. This will translate to more barrel wear, although neither cartridge will wear out a barrel since big bores are not shot like 22's.

There is also a consideration that the higher pressue increases the likelyhood of a stuck case at the worst possible time, especially when the temperature is hot. This is also true, but you never hear of anyone having this problem. We aren't shooting cordite these days.

I believe the 416 Remington is simply a modernized version of the grand old Rigby cartridge with inexpensive brass to go along with the package.

That being said, I opted to buy the Rigby. One for the lower pressure, which is always a good thing when comparing indentical ballastics, two because the Rigby has such class and legend associated with it, and three because there is such confidence to be had when shoving such a huge round up the snout!

RobertD

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atkinson6
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Re: Which cartridge 404 0r 416? [Re: RobertD]
      #17014 - 22/07/04 08:16 AM

To answer some of the questions directed at me, I don't know if CZ will make a 404, they should...I think the 404 is way better for Alaskan bear than the 9.3x64..

I have used the 416 Rem for years or since its introduction and never had a pressure problem with it, if one does it because they put too much powder in it

I cannot tell any difference in killing power between the 416 and 404, and I would even toss in the 458 Win. with a hot handload in that ball park...

If the first shot is correct and bullet construction is correct, then one caliber is about as good as another IMO, and a charge is best stopped with a bullet in the brain and the size of that hole has little to do with anything.

But I will allow that one should shoot the biggest gun that he can shoot easily under adverse conditions, bent over, squatting and prone is a good test, if you dread pulling the trigger you need a smaller caliber...

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