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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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9dot3x74R
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Another Baikal double rifle question
      #153940 - 17/02/10 07:12 AM

I know this rifle has been discussed before, but now that it's been available for a while I'm hoping there may be some more long term experiences now.

<Flame suit on>

I'm only interested in this rifle if I can rechamber it to .45-120. My reasons are simple....

o I already own a single in .45-120.

o I own 100 + cases in .45-120.

o I own a die set in .45-120.

o I have some experience reloading for .45-120.

o I own a reamer for .45-120, and I know how to use it.


All I want is a cheap double that I can play with, mainly to get some shooting experience with a double before spending silly money on a "real" one. If I like the experience, then we can have the "should I get a new Merkel or try to find a low priced english rifle maybe in BPE?" discussion etc etc etc.

I don't want to discuss pressures, or breech thrust, I'm happy with 28,000 in whichever unit you prefer.

OK. Let's get to the questions....

1. I have read that the barrels have chrome linings. Is this true? If so, I don't think I want to try reaming the chambers.

2. What are the OD's of the barrel around the chamber? I believe it is stepped. where are the steps and what are the OD changes at them?

3. Has anyone rechambered one of these? To any cartridge. If so which?

4. Are these rifles still tight and shooting well after hundreds of rounds? If not, when did you notice it loosening up?

5. What sort of problems have you had with the rifle?


I'd love to hear about any experience with this rifle first hand from owners.

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peter
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #153943 - 17/02/10 07:24 AM

miyata

i think that you might want to rethink this, as quite a few people have stated that it allready kicks quite a bit with normal 45-70 loads, which means that as a 45-120 that will be multiplied, its a free world and you do what you want, i just think you might set yourself up for an unplesant expirence.

best

peter

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500Nitro
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #153944 - 17/02/10 07:25 AM


I don't own one but know 2 who do and neither shoots that well.

In looking at them, I wouldn't re chamber one, especially nearly doubling the length of the chamber.

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500Nitro
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 500Nitro]
      #153946 - 17/02/10 07:33 AM


And as peter said, they are stocked badly (too short, wrong angle of the comb) and kick like a mule.

And I wouldn't trust the metalurgy on them either.

Cheap, mass produced "double rifle", built to a price point,
not a standard.

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9dot3x74R
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: peter]
      #153947 - 17/02/10 07:33 AM

Quote:

i think that you might want to rethink this, as quite a few people have stated that it allready kicks quite a bit with normal 45-70 loads, which means that as a 45-120 that will be multiplied, its a free world and you do what you want, i just think you might set yourself up for an unplesant expirence.



If I load for .45-70 velocities, it will be the same. But pressures will be lower, so it will be easier on the rifle at least.

As I mentioned, I have a single in .45-120.

Any Baikal owners out there????

Edited by miyata (17/02/10 07:36 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #153948 - 17/02/10 07:38 AM


I try to keep brass for each gun I own and not use the brass in guns chambered the same.

All chambers are different.

Straight cases are easier but I still keep them separate.

Just my HO.

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9dot3x74R
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 500Nitro]
      #153949 - 17/02/10 07:43 AM

Quote:

And as peter said, they are stocked badly (too short, wrong angle of the comb) and kick like a mule.



Fit is very dependent on the shooter. Basics can be fixed with a rasp and some house paint. We're not talking about defacing an English double so some hacking to make it fit won't outrage anyone.

Quote:

And I wouldn't trust the metalurgy on them either.



Why? What do you know? (EDIT: rereading this it could be taken the wrong way, I'm genuinely interested in what info you might have about their metallurgy.)

Quote:

Cheap, mass produced "double rifle", built to a price point,
not a standard.



As are all modern rifles. I don't see this as a problem.

--------------------
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It arrived !!!


Edited by miyata (17/02/10 08:30 AM)

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9dot3x74R
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 500Nitro]
      #153950 - 17/02/10 07:43 AM

Quote:


I try to keep brass for each gun I own and not use the brass in guns chambered the same.

All chambers are different.

Straight cases are easier but I still keep them separate.

Just my HO.



Good point.

I have enough brass to do this.

Thanks.

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500Nitro
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #153951 - 17/02/10 07:49 AM

Quote:


As are all modern rifles. I don't see this as a problem.




Disagree.

Merkel, Chapuis et al - lower price point but still have a standard.

The rest (other comments in the thread) is just my POV, that's all.

Go for it if you want, it's your face and hands.

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9dot3x74R
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 500Nitro]
      #153952 - 17/02/10 08:25 AM

Thanks for the input 500nitro, it's all useful.

I am amazed at how cheap the Merkel's are... at only $A9,009RRP +gst for a 140A "African" in the big cartridges seems very cheap for what you get. Oddly that seems to be cheaper than in the USA. Surely they are built to a price? And you'd have to think Baikal have some standards, I'd hope that they sacrifice quality but retain safety to meet their price point. If I find some facts that suggest otherwise then they'll be off the list.

Of course, by rechambering a Baikal I'd be reducing pressures and thereby increasing safety, if I stick with .45-70 velocities. So that would reduce the risk to my face and hands, not increase it.

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4seventy
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #153957 - 17/02/10 09:05 AM

If you are going to load the 45-120 to the same velocity as the 45-70, I really dont't see any benefit.
Anything you gain in lower pressure due to the greater case capacity will be lost in the dramas of trying to fill all that extra space.
I wouldn't rechamber one of these rifles to anything.
Sounds like you want a 45-70. These rifles come in 45-70. Pressure is already very low at 28,000psi.
Why would you want to complicate things with a rechamber?

Edited by 4seventy (17/02/10 09:13 AM)

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9dot3x74R
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 4seventy]
      #153958 - 17/02/10 09:15 AM

Quote:

If you are going to load the 45-120 to the same velocity as the 45-70, I really dont't see any benefit.
Anything you gain in lower pressure due to the greater case capacity will be lost in the dramas of trying to fill all that extra space.
I wouldn't rechamber one of these rifles to anything.
Sounds like you want a 45-70. These rifles come in 45-70. Pressure is already very low at 28,000psi.
Why would you want to complicate things with a rechamber?



To save money.

If I choose to reload to the same pressure as the .45-70, then I benefit from greater performance (yes, and recoil etc).

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500Nitro
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #153959 - 17/02/10 09:36 AM

If you have enough cases to have 2 sets, 1 set for each gun,
then cut down some of the 45/120 brass to 45/70.

The only money you are saving is in the cost of the Brass
and using your exisiting 45/120 brass.

But how much will a re chamber cost ???

Save on the cost of the re chamber and buy some Brass with the same money.


I really think you are barking up the wrong tree
and it is all false economy.

Edited by 500Nitro (17/02/10 09:39 AM)

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4seventy
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #153960 - 17/02/10 09:37 AM

Quote:

If I choose to reload to the same pressure as the .45-70, then I benefit from greater performance



You have said twice that you would load the 45-120 to 45-70 velocity, and therefore pressures would be lower.
Now you want to load to the same pressure in order to "gain performance".
The story has changed.

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DarylS
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 4seventy]
      #153972 - 17/02/10 11:38 AM

The problem with long BP cases is they are not light-load friendly. there is too much empty space.

Some powders like Trail Boss might help, but beware, pressure with that powder will outstrip the ballistics it delivers. Even a low vel. load of 950fps in the .45/70 produces 24,000PSI. Longer case, more trail boss, more pressure and sub-standard velcoity. It is designed to fill a cae and produce pressures that are low for a very strong action, without having the difficulty of low load volume. It does not produce low pressure, per se'. Slower rifle powders do.

You can get good to terrific ballistics from the Baikal in .45/70 or .45 3-1/4" and still hold pressure down to 28,000PSI.

5744 might be the best bet for a longer case with cast bullets, if searching for a cheap, low pressure, low velocity load.

--------------------
Daryl


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9dot3x74R
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: DarylS]
      #153982 - 17/02/10 12:23 PM

Thanks for the reply Daryl. I agree re trail boss. As I mentioned, I already load for 45-120 (or .45 3-1/4") and I agree with your comments. Fillers are often necessary, but they really aren't all that much trouble. Slow powders help.

4seventy: Huh? I have the choice of either loading to the same pressure as a .45-70 with better performance, or loading to the same performance with less pressure. What's so difficult to understand?

500Nitro: Huh? Why cut down valuable brass? The extra costs also involve new dies, different powders etc etc. What cost of reaming? I can have it done for zeeeeeero cost, as I said I already have a reamer.

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4seventy
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #153993 - 17/02/10 01:05 PM

miyata,
Sounds to me like your mind is already made up on this.
A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

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9dot3x74R
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 4seventy]
      #153994 - 17/02/10 01:12 PM

Quote:

miyata,
Sounds to me like your mind is already made up on this.
A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.



LOL. Not totally...... I rang the Merkel dude again today, and for relatively little money I could have a shiny new 9.3x74R... I continue to be amazed at how cheap these things are.... I might just skip the "try a cheapy, just to see" phase and buy a not as cheap (but still cheap) proper double. I was just going to write off the cost of the Baikal anyway (hence my interest in keeping it low), but hell why not just jump in?

Of course, having read other people's opinions on Merkels on this forum, I'd probably get bagged for buying such a rubbishy rifle......LOL.

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4seventy
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #153998 - 17/02/10 01:26 PM

Quote:

Of course, having read other people's opinions on Merkels on this forum, I'd probably get bagged for buying such a rubbishy rifle



I don't think too many here would bag you for buying a Merkel.
We have members who own very high quality English doubles who also own Merkel doubles.
They speak highly of the Merkels as representing good value for money.

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500Nitro
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 4seventy]
      #154001 - 17/02/10 01:37 PM

Quote:



I don't think too many here would bag you for buying a Merkel.
We have members who own very high quality English doubles who also own Merkel doubles.
They speak highly of the Merkels as representing good value for money.




Me being one of them. I have 2 Merkels. A 470 and a Scoped 375H&H.

Yes, to me they are my "thrash" guns for when I go into swamps etc where I will get wet / muddy or where I just want to blast off more than a few shots.

They ARE good value for money.

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4seventy
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #154003 - 17/02/10 01:45 PM

Quote:

I rang the Merkel dude again today, and for relatively little money I could have a shiny new 9.3x74R... I continue to be amazed at how cheap these things are.... I might just skip the "try a cheapy, just to see" phase and buy a not as cheap (but still cheap) proper double. I was just going to write off the cost of the Baikal anyway (hence my interest in keeping it low), but hell why not just jump in?




Yes, buying a 9.3x74R Merkel is a far better idea than rechambering a Baikel 45-70 to 45-120 IMO.
Let us know when you pick up the Merkel, and please post some photos.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #154011 - 17/02/10 02:21 PM

Quote:

I rang the Merkel dude again today, and for relatively little money I could have a shiny new 9.3x74R... I continue to be amazed at how cheap these things are....




Miyata

A FAR better idea.

The 9.3x74R cartridge is also more effective than a .45/70 in my opinion and FAR more versatile.

The "medium" calibre chamberings in double rifles - the 9.3mm is often at the top end of that range - are often considerably more affordable than the big bore models.

Good thinking.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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450_366
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: NitroX]
      #154038 - 17/02/10 06:57 PM

As you are already loading the 45-120, get one and ream it. 28000psi gives easially 2000-2100fps with a 400gr bullet as you probably already know.

45-120 or not, its still a ugly gun with crappy triggers.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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500Nitro
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 450_366]
      #154039 - 17/02/10 07:08 PM

Quote:

As you are already loading the 45-120, get one and ream it. 28000psi gives easially 2000-2100fps with a 400gr bullet as you probably already know.

45-120 or not, its still a ugly gun with crappy triggers.




Oh yes, you mentioned the crappy triggers.

I forgot about those. I have never felt anything worse.

Definately a sign that they were built to a price point
and not a standard.

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9dot3x74R
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Re: Another Baikal double rifle question [Re: 500Nitro]
      #154412 - 22/02/10 08:18 AM

OK, I get the hint.

I've just ordered a double. Here's a pic from the distributor....



I'll post some better pics when I actually have it in my hands.... a 28 day wait.

I still think the Baikal project would have been fun... maybe I'll do that too.

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