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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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beleg2
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Reged: 15/08/07
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Loc: Bahía Blanca - Argentina
12 Ga Round Ball advise.
      #152129 - 29/01/10 11:30 AM



Do not want to highjack threads form other members so I began my own thread.

I have been checking advises about round ball from 12 Ga “smooth barrel rifle” and I want to be sure to buy the right RB.
I have scoped my Spanish double barrel shotgun so I can use it as 12 Ga double rifle.
BTW: I will try the filing of the muzzles for regulation.

Now my questions:
Right barrel is cylinder at .725” and left is choked, .693”.
What RB diameter would work best in both barrels?
I will order a mold from Tanner so I can get almost any diameter.
What about .690” round ball?
Would it work in cylinder barrels?

Thank you very much.
Martin

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DarylS
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: beleg2]
      #152133 - 29/01/10 12:28 PM

Martin- I'd go with the biggest ball mould that is easily obtained, yet doesn't touch the bore. Leading is a pain to removed.

If you don't want to, or are not allowed to cut the barrels shorter, then the .690" is the one to get. Lee makes the mould, so that's about $20.00 US. Tanner moulds in that size run around $30.00 and you'll need handles too.

I mounted a scope on my double 12, just for load checking so I'd not have an aiming error. After that, I dovetailed in a nice rear sight form Track of the Wolf to go with the dovetailed bead at the front.

Say - is there a trap range close by? The gas checks cut off trap wads, make good ball centering devices. Range pickup makes them pretty cheap. On the trip out the barrel, they hold the ball exactly in the middle of the tube, so there's no bouncing side to side, top to bottom.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: DarylS]
      #152203 - 30/01/10 08:15 AM

Thanks Daryl,
I would like to try Tammer molds, they looks very good and I like the handcut spru, balls looks rounder. Considering shipping cost $10.- is not much of a difference.

I have search at local range but could not find round gas check wads. It looks like the ammo used here is different.
A friend have some (5000) wads that have round gas check but Im not sure if they will work. I will try them but I suspect it can colapse when shot.




If it do not work, I have 16 Ga wads with round GCheck that can be use into a normal (flat) 12 Ga was.
I think this can work.

Thanks
Martin

Edited by CptCurl (14/06/11 09:14 PM)

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DarylS
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: beleg2]
      #152239 - 30/01/10 03:34 PM

I'd try that one, Martin, but cut accross the middle, so the bottom of the gas check is closed.
That is, from the botom of the fingers, across the second upright posts, and trimmed so the surface is flat.

One should be cup-up, to cradle the ball and hold it in the centre.
Place another on top of the powder, cup-down as a gas check, then whatever fiber wad is needed between to get the right height with the ball to crimp- either folded, or roll crimp. I use a folded crimp.

I would use a high velocity load listed in a manual for 1 1/8th to 1 1/4 oz. of shot and work from there, developing the load further for velocity and accuracy. Accuracy wins out over velocity, but I found the higher the velocity, the better the accuracy.

With a .690" ball, you should be able to get 1,500fps, very close to what a 191gr. 2F black powder charge will give- but - the smokeless load will kick perhaps only 1/2 as much.

That wad looks like it will work very well. It is soft and plyable in appearance.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: DarylS]
      #152241 - 30/01/10 03:42 PM

Thanks Daryl,
I will tryed soon.
Martin

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DarylS
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: beleg2]
      #183608 - 14/06/11 06:40 AM

Martin- the whole idea of the cupped wad, is to hold the ball in the middle of the barrel which will prevent the ball from touching the side of the bore. Thus, it will be launched without or with little spin (most wads take on a slight spin, apparently), but that spin will be radial, around the bore's axis tending to increase accuracy, not as in a climbing or dropping spin as can happen if an unprotected ball rattles down the bore. That bouncing, erradically spinning innacurate ball emulates the old round ball loads, so-called punkin-balls of yesteryear, not the much more accurate modern round ball loads as we now know to make them.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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beleg2
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: DarylS]
      #183629 - 14/06/11 11:26 AM

Thanks Daryl for resurrecting my old thread.
I have tryed RB only once because I have no sohtgun reloading equipment.
A friend help me but he is now very busy.
I hope to try it soon.
Thanks
Martin

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DarylS
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: beleg2]
      #183630 - 14/06/11 11:27 AM

A simple Lee Loader will suffice, Martin, if other loading systems aren't available easily.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Loc: Rocky Mtn. House Alberta
Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: DarylS]
      #183633 - 14/06/11 01:32 PM

I too have no shotgun reloading equipment so had to figure things out and it worked out very well in my opinion. I take primed hulls which you can do with simple tools (hammer, punch, plate etc.). I then hand weigh each powder charge, add wadding set ball with good thumb pressure and seal with beeswax. Be sure to wad up appropriate length hull so ball is very near mouth of hull. I have no proof but I believe that no crimp lowers pressure and the beeswax has been keeping my bore properly lubed and lead free which helps me as I run my round balls about .001 over. I know this differs from Darryls advice (he has been instrumental to my success) but that's what's working for me. Keep at it and when your ready to quit your getting close to success.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: Smoke73]
      #183635 - 14/06/11 01:38 PM

One more thing if you run bore riding balls they had best be hard. I found success over 18 Brinell hardness. If I ever order a custom mould it would be .002" under so wheel weight would drop right on the money or slightly under.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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DarylS
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: Smoke73]
      #183699 - 15/06/11 12:51 AM

smoke73 - try adding about 35% to 40% Vaseline to that beewswax. That makes it pretty close to the Sharps lube of the 1880's. I know Vaseline is petrolium jelly - and petrolium will not mix with black powder fouling - in thoery & proctise, mostly. I believe Vaseling is a synthseized derivitive of petrolium and I surmise that when it is synthesized, it's properties must be changed somewhat, as when mixed with beeswax, it makes a great lube for black powder and smokeless in large bores. I've driven .45 and .50 cal bullets to 2,000fps without leading, using 60:40 BW/Vas for lube. It also worked wonderfully with black powder loads in my Rolling Block.

Beeswax by itself, is not a particularly good lube - seems to work in your instance, but - it becomes a good lube, when it is used on conjunction with an additive. The beeswax, due to it's consistancy properties, makes an excellent "carrier", whereas other waxes, like parafin don't do as well. This has born out in my own testing in comparrisons of the two carriers. Of course, others seem to like parafin and fuly recommend it.

As to crimps, Lyman still sells the roll crimper than can be used in a drill press, or with an electric drill. Increasing crimp pressure makes for a better, more consistant burning of the powder charge. Lee sells the plastic star crimpers and with plastic cases, one of these will partically fold the neck over the ball, making for a sort-of pointed crimp, that helps hold things together. The pouring of lube on top of the ball, then when still soft, forming the plastic over the ball and holding it for a few seconds, might help hold the case crimp/folds.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: DarylS]
      #183713 - 15/06/11 05:51 AM

A small tip I've learnt with roll crimping, smear a very small amount of case lube, something like RCBS, because that't what I have, around the outside of the case mouth, makes for a nicer roll crimp.
Also, run the drill press at about 600 rpm, seems fast, but builds up heat a little quicker, making the crimp form a little better.

Regards,
David

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #183749 - 15/06/11 02:46 PM

Under my balls I run a ox-yoke wad that comes pre-lubed with wonderlube and a sp12 rem plastic under that. Gives me a good seal, proper height and a little more lube. I know wonderlube isn't the best so after I run out of these I will make my own saturated wads. Will definitely try the beeswax/Vaseline and I have some of my own concoction I am going to try. It is 80% olive oil, 10% beef tallow, 10% beeswax. My old leatherworking mentor taught me to stir this stuff up and it is great stuff, a soft solid at room temp. Good for leather and skin and hope it works on wads too.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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bwanabobftw
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Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 665
Loc: Texas
Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: Smoke73]
      #183805 - 16/06/11 01:37 AM

Smoke ,
I have a H&H Paradox that I have been trying to get to shoot. The factory paradox rounds are all over the place. I have been playing with some round balls from "BPI" as well as some wads made for round balls. The "leading" is pretty bad where the rifling starts. Are you putting lube on the balls or just on patch ? And do you put patch in the bottom of wad or do you put it around the ball? I also am having problem with roll crimper , it doesn't have enough space for the round ball , forget about paradox slug. Someone said they are not crimping their loads how do you get balls to stay in case? Pardon my ignorance on all of this , not much experience with shot shell loading . Thanks in advance for any help !!!!
Robert

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DarylS
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #183809 - 16/06/11 01:53 AM

Some roll the balls in Lee's Liquid Alox for leading prevention. I haven't done it, but with smokeless loads, it will certainly help. With BP loads, Alox will not soften BP fouling. A softer BW/Vaseline mix might work well- like 40/60, BW/Vas.

I haven't had any luck with any lubes using Olive oil - when using black powder as a propellant. More BW, less oil stiffens the mix, of course you know that.

You adjust the wad or wad height, to get the right height for cimping, Robert. In 2 3/4", I was able to use the lighter 12 bore 5 1/2 dram load (black powder) and fold crimp the cases. With 7 drams, I had to use a partially tapered fold crimp which worked and stayed in place, although I think there might have been enough material for a roll crimp.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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bwanabobftw
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: DarylS]
      #183814 - 16/06/11 03:22 AM

Thanks Daryl,
I had run into Roger Lake the other day in H&H London , he said he used the first stage of crimp (on a loader) and then used a wire to get crimp in paper case . Not sure this will work with balls. I thought about just a normal folded crimp , sounds like what you are doing with BP load . I may play with wads to get the correct height for a folded crimp. Do you use paper or plastic cases ? I just bought some loaded Federal paper cases , thought I would use them for clay practice and then try loading them with "balls". I will order some Lee's Liquid Alox and see if that helps.

Roger thought my gun was an early gun that has a larger bore and that was reason the factory stuff would not shoot. Thought I might be able to "roll my own" with larger slug and get it to shoot. It is showing promise with the balls. It shoots at 50 yards with the 50 yard sight and pretty good groups , but several flyers lead me to wonder if I am holding ball tight enough to powder / wad and getting erratic ignition ?? As well as the mentioned lead problem .

Thanks,
Robert

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bwanabobftw
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #183815 - 16/06/11 03:36 AM

Daryl,
One more stupid question , do you heat the wax up ? I was reading one of the previous post from someone , and they said they melted plastic on top of the ball ? I guess that is to secure the ball with case (what type of plastic would you use ,or would you) ? Your thoughts , you seem to be the expert in this.
Robert

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CommandCar
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #183829 - 16/06/11 07:35 AM

Round balls are not for the Paradox.

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: CommandCar]
      #183840 - 16/06/11 09:28 AM

I've been simply pressing load with thumb pressure(all you got) then top off case with molten beeswax and let harden. Sticks well to plastic and completely seals entire load with no crimp. A word of caution, be sure wad seals hull so that beeswax does not reach powder, if it does you won't get much of a bang.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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bwanabobftw
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: Smoke73]
      #183841 - 16/06/11 10:45 AM

Thanks "Smoke" !!

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DarylS
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #183937 - 17/06/11 01:44 AM

Be quite carefull when melting beeswax. It is highly flamable. Most sources say that when making lubes, to melt them in a double boiler - can within a can of water.

Robert, considering the slugs are "all over the place", there is nothing lost in trying round balls. I'm quite certain that there were rifled choke guns made for round ball as well as for slugs. If it doesn't shoot one even reasonably well, perhaps the other will work. Nothing lost in trying.

Trackofthewolf.com sells round balls in a number of sizes. I found these useful in testing.
I still prefer to use an undersized ball, and a cup wad (or cloth patch to hold it centered and 'take' the rifling. The spin is perfectly transferred to the ball.

Note the middle row of 'loads'. They were more accurate than the bare balls, which engraved the rifling in this particular rifle barrel.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by CptCurl (20/06/11 09:59 PM)

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Smoke73
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Reged: 30/05/11
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: DarylS]
      #183949 - 17/06/11 02:45 AM

X2 on Daryl's advice. Round balls are very versatile and I believe they can be made to shoot in anything. My wife's inline muzzleloader has a modern sabot twist (1-28) and shouldn't shoot roundballs well. It shoot PRBalls great. Less recoil too. We've even shot double ball loads .5" at 50 yards. It'll work just stick with it.

--------------------
Your not tired, you just think your tired, you don't even know what the hell tired is.- Garth Ahlstrom (Thanx Dad love ya)

"When one of them is born, their god says ' Go in peace.'
When one of us is born our Gods say "Go hunting."- J. Emmett Willie

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CommandCar
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Reged: 18/09/10
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: DarylS]
      #183955 - 17/06/11 05:27 AM

Well, maybe round balls can work in the Paradox without damage to the choke. I don't know the answer... But, in trying the Paradox, the process does not start with Holland's factory loads, then go immediately to RB's after the factory loads don't work. There are more appropriate intermediate steps to try first.

I understand Robert's frustrations, I almost threw my Evans in the pond next to the range a couple times during the 2 year load development period. Now I am glad I stuck with it...

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bwanabobftw
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: CommandCar]
      #183977 - 17/06/11 12:35 PM

Thanks everyone . I didn't mean to high jack the thread . Command Car and I are working together now on some idea's and I (we) will post here when we have some nice targets to show.
Again Thanks !!!
Robert

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beleg2
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Re: 12 Ga Round Ball advise. [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #184036 - 18/06/11 05:18 AM

Hi,
Im concern about rollcrim over small round balls (.690").
Im afraid of the ball not "unrolling the mouth" trying to pass through the boubled case mouth.
I hope you can underestand what I mean.
Thanks
Martin

Edited by beleg2 (18/06/11 05:19 AM)

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