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hansol
.224 member


Reged: 15/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
510 Wells Build Questions
      #151783 - 25/01/10 04:57 PM

Hi guys,

I'm just wondering if you guys can chime in with your experiences here:

I'm in the process of putting together the parts for a .510 Wells/A-Square build. I decided on this cartridge because I felt brass would be more readily available, as well as cheaper, seeing as I can just use 460 Weatherby and neck it up. But other than that, I know very little about this cartridge, other than she is a boomer. So any input here as to likes/dislikes would be appreciated, so I know what I'm getting myself into.

Secondly, any ideas on a barrel profile? I'm in the process of picking a contour, but mainly I'm concerned about weight/strength. I found a .50 BMG profile, that starts at 1.700 for the first 4", tapers to 1.350" at around 7", and then slowly tapers to around 1.150" at the 30" muzzle. But seeing as I'm leaning towards a 24" barrel (it is a hunting rifle after all), and the fact that it's not a .50 BMG, I'm just wondering what other guys have used for their own .50 builds? I want the rifle to have enough weight so that she doesn't kick outrageously, but still able to be a bit of a carry-rifle.

Anyways I'm very excited about this build, and would very much appreciate any input/suggestions/words of wisdom that you gents can impart. Cheers and all the best!


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450_Ackley
.375 member


Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: hansol]
      #151785 - 25/01/10 05:18 PM

Hansol,
I have a 500 Jeffery built on an Enfield action and the barrel in mine is as follows - 26" long, 1.3" diameter at the receiver, parallel for 3 inches, then tapering to 1 inch at the 5 inch mark, then tapering to .850" at the muzzle. The stock is a laminated Boyd's and the rifle just has a Redfield receiver sight, no scope, it weighs 10lb 14 ozs as set-up.
It is quite nice to shoot at that weight, but your Wells/A-square will have a bit more grunt than the 500 Jeffery as well.
I wouldn't want a much heavier barrel than what I have, otherwise it may turn out too muzzle heavy, you could always balance that with a bit of lead in the buttstock, but you can also end up with a "Dead Handling" rifle, one that doesn't handle or come up to the shoulder easily.
For hunting purposes go for handling qualities over a bit more weight.

David.


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hansol
.224 member


Reged: 15/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #151816 - 26/01/10 02:32 AM

David,

Thank you VERY much for that info. That's exactly what I was looking for. There is lots of info for the "tactical" nonsense, but trickier to find proper hunting info. And because it's a .50, I want to make sure I have enough "material" on the barrel to be safe, but also have a decent handling rifle. And from the sounds of things, your rig sounds perfect.

Oh one last thing, is your barrel ported/braked or not?

Thanks very much for your help -Cameron


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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: hansol]
      #151856 - 26/01/10 08:31 AM

Cameron,
No, the barrel is not ported, I do have a mercury recoil reducer in the stock and a Decelerator 1" recoil pad, thats all.

David.


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Altamaha
.333 member


Reged: 29/12/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Washington State USA
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #151865 - 26/01/10 09:41 AM

The middle barreled action in the photo is a 450 Rigby on a Brno 602 action. I will be completing the rifle this spring. Barrel is a special contour 24 inches long. 0.850” at the muzzle, 1.3 inches at the breech for a length 3 inches in front of the receiver ring. (I ordered the barrel with a 4 inch 1.3” diameter breech, trimmed and threaded to leave 3 inches out in front of the ring) By sheer luck, this is about the same contour as the one in 450 Ackley's post. The 450 Rigby is simply a 458 on a necked up 416 Rigby brass, or a 460 Weatherby brass without the belt, however you want to call it. So basically the same case as your 510 Wells. I would use the same contour on your 510 Wells. Top barreled action is a 404 Jeffery in a No. 6 contour 24 inches long. Bottom is a 458 Win in a Mark X factory barrel, cut to 20 inches. This is about a 4-1/2 contour, this is a light 458.

Where are you in B.C.? I am 30 miles south of Victoria, if you are ever across the border this way let me know in advance and you can see the barreled actions in person.



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Altamaha
.333 member


Reged: 29/12/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Washington State USA
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #151880 - 26/01/10 12:37 PM

"I wouldn't want a much heavier barrel than what I have, otherwise it may turn out too muzzle heavy, you could always balance that with a bit of lead in the buttstock, but you can also end up with a "Dead Handling" rifle, one that doesn't handle or come up to the shoulder easily.
For hunting purposes go for handling qualities over a bit more weight."

Man, do I ever go along with this statement!!! Years ago I had a 510 A-Square, the Hannibal and Coil Check Stock. I did not agree with the way the rifle carried or shouldered and sold it.


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hansol
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Reged: 15/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: Altamaha]
      #151885 - 26/01/10 01:35 PM

Awesome guys, thanks so much for all the info. It's looking like a profile similar to the ones you guys listed above should make for a pretty slick-handling rifle.

Altamaha, when I'm in your neck of the woods I'll definitely drop a line and stop by. These days I'm out in Alberta, but "home" is Bowen Island, BC, up near Vancouver. Those look like great actions to check out, so I'll certainly take you up on your offer at some point.


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Altamaha
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Reged: 29/12/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Washington State USA
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: hansol]
      #151966 - 27/01/10 04:23 AM

Hansol, I put a lot of thought into the barrel contour, I was looking at recoil management, balance and overall appearance. I think a high recoil big bore needs a good husky look about it and needs enough barrel weight to help keep the muzzle from rising too high during firing. I do not like brakes, too much noise. The stock going on the 450 is well proportioned with a good grasp and a large butt area. Of course with proper cast off, drop and pitch to fit me. I am nearly finished with the pattern stock for this rifle, I will post a photo later. I like to work out all the details in a pattern stock, including inletting the barreled action and shooting the rifle, prior to carving up a expensive piece of wood. I also like a stock with good form, so the stock for this one will have nice classic lines.

Bowen island is about 90 miles north as the seagull flies. A lot longer by ferry and highways!

Thanks!


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hansol
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Reged: 15/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: Altamaha]
      #152206 - 30/01/10 09:49 AM

Hey guys,

Just a quick update. I snagged my p14 donor rifle, and it is in the mail. She still has the .303 barrel on her, so I'll probably see how she shoots with that before I put the new barrel on. I've also snagged myself a bastogne walnut stock that is pre-inletted for the action. Now I just have to wait on the barrel, as the guy I'm buying from is on holidays at the moment...

There is going to be lots of worked involved with this one. Between contouring the barrel, opening up the action, getting it to feed properly, getting the weird barrel threads cut, and then trying to track down brass ($$$), it should be fun.

As an aside, I was thinking a guy might also be able to use a .50-110 case and use that as the basis for a build. Brass is MUCH cheaper, and the rimmed case isn't that much wider than the base of the .460 WBY. It also is a shorter case, so the magazine wouldn't need opening up or modifications. I think the only catch is seeing if the case can hold 100ish grains of smokeless. I reckon if it can hold 110 of black powder, the smokeless should be no problem.

Just thinking out loud...


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: hansol]
      #152207 - 30/01/10 09:50 AM


A gunsmith in Queensland, Australia - i think in a town called Dalby - has built a few of them - or something very similar.


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Altamaha
.333 member


Reged: 29/12/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Washington State USA
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: hansol]
      #152230 - 30/01/10 02:21 PM

Quote:

Hey guys,

Just a quick update. I snagged my p14 donor rifle, and it is in the mail. She still has the .303 barrel on her, so I'll probably see how she shoots with that before I put the new barrel on. I've also snagged myself a bastogne walnut stock that is pre-inletted for the action. Now I just have to wait on the barrel, as the guy I'm buying from is on holidays at the moment...

There is going to be lots of worked involved with this one. Between contouring the barrel, opening up the action, getting it to feed properly, getting the weird barrel threads cut, and then trying to track down brass ($$$), it should be fun.

As an aside, I was thinking a guy might also be able to use a .50-110 case and use that as the basis for a build. Brass is MUCH cheaper, and the rimmed case isn't that much wider than the base of the .460 WBY. It also is a shorter case, so the magazine wouldn't need opening up or modifications. I think the only catch is seeing if the case can hold 100ish grains of smokeless. I reckon if it can hold 110 of black powder, the smokeless should be no problem.

Just thinking out loud...




Threads are easy, I have barreled several P-14's and 1917 Enfields. Square thread, just make sure the smith understands square threads and how to fit them tight. I spot in the threads with prussian bluing compound to be sure I have good engagement. Tool bit grinding is the key, it has to be the exact size. I also grind a little hook on the top of the tool bit, like a cutoff or parting tool. This cuts the steel and rolls out a nice chip. A flat top tool bit will tear the steel and chatter.

Things you should do: Face the front of the receiver ring. Lightly lap the lugs for uniform contact. Check the bolt face for squareness and correct if necessary. If you scope the rifle, drill and tap for 8-40 screws. I have truing arbors for all the actions I work with, if you need I will post a photo. Think about triggers and safetys and cock on opening. You need a recoil lug on the barrel as in the photo. Pillar bed the action. Cross bolts in the stock. And a wrist reinforcing rod epoxied in. I use grade 8 all thread 1/2" in diameter, extends from the rear pillar back into the big area of the butt. Steelbed or something similar bedded around both recoil lugs. AcraGlas or something similar to bed the remainder of the barrel and action. The barrel recoil lugs I make have draft on the front and sides so you can get the barreled action out of the stock after the bedding has cured!

I will do some case measuring tomorrow, I have 50-110 cases stashed in the shop. I have also thought of using 500 Nitro cases, I have a few in 3-1/4" length. Sort of expensive cases, but would make an interesting cartridge when adapted for a bolt action, might have to turn the rims and make a semi-rimmed.



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450_Ackley
.375 member


Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: Altamaha]
      #152233 - 30/01/10 02:43 PM

500 Nitro,
The gunsmith you are talking about is indeed in Dalby, his name is Dan Linsley, and Yes, he has built a number of 510 Wells's. He shoots at the same range as I do.
I'd consider him a slightly eccentric Englishman!
Does good work though, and there isn't much that beats him.

DC


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #152235 - 30/01/10 03:01 PM

450

Yes, that's him, couldn't remember his name.
Thanks.


I could also be considered the same LOL

Edited by 500Nitro (30/01/10 03:01 PM)


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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: 500Nitro]
      #152245 - 30/01/10 05:30 PM

My solution, which John Buhmiller and I arrived at separately, was to cut the .460 Weatherby case down to 2.50" and neck the remaining case to .500-.505" (I did one of each). This allowed the loaded round to feed through the M1917 magazine box I fitted to my P-14 actions with no modifications. We both felt the full sized .460 case was too long and had excess case capacity.
My cartridge has just enough shoulder to make it feed easily.

The resulting case holds 90 grains of 4064 up to the base of the bullet and duplicates .500 Nitro Express velocities in a 22" barrel producing 2150 fps with a 570 grain bullet. If you PM me your email address, I can send you pictures of the rifle and cartridge.


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hansol
.224 member


Reged: 15/08/08
Posts: 33
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: xausa]
      #152249 - 30/01/10 06:04 PM

Hey guys,

WOW! Thanks for all the input so far! There is quite the wealth of info being shared here. And of course, with that, it brings more questions

****

Altamaha, a few questions for you (and I apolgize for my ignorance, as I'm fairly new to this game):

-When you say "face the receiver", what exactly does that mean?

-Regarding the barrel recoil lug: How does a guy usually "attatch" one of these to the barrel? Is a block of steel just milled rectangular, contoured to fit the barrel, and then silver-soldered into place?

-Lastly, regarding the 50-110 case, if you do indeed have some kicking around, I would certainly be curious to see how many grains of powder it could reasonably hold. I can snag 50-110 brass for around $1 a piece. 460 WBY is $65 for 20, and 500 nitro is around $3.60 per case. But it seems to me that most of the .500 boomers are running around 90-105 grains of smokeless, so if a 50-110 could hold that, it would make for a more economical "boomer" haha.

-Oh and feel free to post any pics. I always like to see what guys use to make things work.

I wish I could do the barrel contouring/threading myself, but I don't think I have the skill, nor the tools, to accurately make the threads. The contouring may be possible, but I think I may have to send away for those sorts of things. I wish I had a "for-real" lathe...

****

xausa, that sounds like quite the cartridge, and certainly sounds reasonable. Plus the fact that it works in the factory magazine box makes it seem very attractive as well. PM sent.

****

Anyways, thanks guys for all your input. With a reception like this, I will continue to "think out loud" here and see what comes up. It is fun figuring these things out, and especially trying to make them work within a college student's budget. Yes, I could just send it to a smithy/machine shop, but unfortunately I don't have the money for that at the moment. Plus it's fun documenting/building the projects. It worked for my .375 Taylor and my shotgun build, so why not this, right?

Cheers and all the best -Cameron


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Homer
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Reged: 07/04/09
Posts: 3081
Loc: Canberra, Australia
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: hansol]
      #152253 - 30/01/10 07:19 PM

G'Day Fella's,

I just read this thread for the first time to soak in some of this truly Big Bore info.

The thought that immediately came to me on this subject is Twist Rate!
The twist rate for a .50 BMG barrel, may not be any good for the .510 Wells/A Square?

Sorry if I'm barking up the wrong tree here but I'm of the opinion that it's better to ask a Dumb Question, than the alternative.

Good Luck with this project and I look forward to an image of the end product!

Edit(I forgot to mention that I really like the look of Altamaha's barreled actions!!! Hommer)

HooRoo
From
Hommer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

Edited by Hommer (31/01/10 11:02 AM)


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Altamaha
.333 member


Reged: 29/12/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Washington State USA
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: Homer]
      #152279 - 31/01/10 03:25 AM

The longer the bullets, the faster the twist. 50 BMG twist is usually 15 inches. My 450 Dakota twist is 14 inches, but I wanted a 10 or a 12. I could have obtained this if I bought a Krieger, but at the time I did not like the one year waiting period.

So, if I were building a 510 I likely would use a 15, maybe a 14 if I were using the short 535 grain Woodleighs. If I were using longer monometals, I would want a 12 inch twist.

The general thinking amongst accuracy fans is the big bores of the past had too slow a twist. Many were 18, even 20 inch.

And if you believe the A-Square hype, a faster twist and faster bullet rotation (higher RPM) increases the hydrostatic shock effect and the higher gryoscopic stability results in deeper penetration.


Edited by Altamaha (31/01/10 03:56 AM)


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500grains
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Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: Altamaha]
      #152293 - 31/01/10 04:43 AM

The old slow twist .460 wby rifles exhibited some really poor penetration. Wby went with a faster twist, and it seemed to help. Maybe they also went with thicker jacket bullets too at the same time, I don't know.

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Altamaha
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Reged: 29/12/08
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Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: 500grains]
      #152299 - 31/01/10 06:42 AM

Quote:

The old slow twist .460 wby rifles exhibited some really poor penetration. Wby went with a faster twist, and it seemed to help. Maybe they also went with thicker jacket bullets too at the same time, I don't know.




Yes!

Weatherby back in the FN Mauser days did not get the twist correct. I had a 270 Weatherby on a FN action, built by Weatherby. Twist was 14 inches. Would group poorly with 130 grain bullets and 150 grain bullets would do a shotgun pattern. Put a 10 inch twist barrel on it and solved the problem.


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450_Ackley
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Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: Altamaha]
      #152309 - 31/01/10 08:37 AM

Quote:

So, if I were building a 510 I likely would use a 15, maybe a 14 if I were using the short 535 grain Woodleighs. If I were using longer monometals, I would want a 12 inch twist.






Why would you go to a faster twist with a shorter projectile?

My 500 Jeffery is a 1-23" twist, it will happily stabilise 570 grain Woodleighs and 535 grain Woodleighs. It also stabilises a 550 grain cast bullet I have, even when velocities get down to 1500 fps or so.
The twist rate in a 50 BMG barrel is fine.
If you had a take out barrel for a 50 BMG and the time/ability/contacts to have it re-profiled, then you would most certainly use it.

David.


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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #152314 - 31/01/10 10:23 AM

My 500 Jeffery is a 1-10" twist, seems to do just fine with 535g and 570g bullets too. I haven't shot anything heavier.

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"


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Altamaha
.333 member


Reged: 29/12/08
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Loc: Washington State USA
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: chuck375]
      #152449 - 01/02/10 02:47 PM

Hansol, I will be in the shop Monday and take a few photos.

I found the 50-110 and 500 Nitro cases today.

I also have some modern day load data, with pressure and velocity readings, for a 50 caliber single shot rifle I was working with a few years ago. Basically a 50-110 in a modern receiver loaded to around 45,000 psi. 5,265 ft lbs with a 450 grain bullet. With another 1/2 inch or so of case length this will fit in an Enfield and run up to around 7000 ft pounds if I remember correctly. Should do nicely for a cape buff. I ran some Quckload predictions of this combination, it is very impressive. I will dig out the data. I terminated the project with the 50-110 case, as I was afraid someone would get their hands on one of the cartridges and fire it in a 1886 Winchester or one of the old single shots. Instant blowup.

Facing the receiver ring: The stripped receiver is mounted on a threaded mandrel, precision turned with centers to fit the lathe, and a snug fit both on the receiver threads and inside the bolt run. Then the front of the receiver is turned true so it is both at a 90 degree angle to the axis of the receiver in all quadrants and to provide a flat, smooth surface for the barrel shank to butt against. We need this, as if the receiver face is not true, which in factory and military arms the face is not true, then as the barrel expands on repeated shots, the barrel "walks" and the muzzle drifts, giving poor grouping on the repeated shots. Very important to face the receiver ring in target and extreme range rifles, and it is a good thing to do on all hunting rifles. Takes all of 5 minutes to do in the metal lathe if the gun builder is properly equipped. I will take a photo of the setup, the old statement "A photo is worth a thousand words" applies here. This is why I use a 1.300” diameter barrel shank, gives me a lot of bearing surface against the receiver ring.

Barrel Recoil Lug Attachment: I make the lugs in my shop. The lug is machined for a close fit to the barrel contour and is attached with two no. 8-40 high strength screws and Brownells HiForce silver solder. HiForce has a tensile strength over 30,000 psi, melts at around 400 degrees F, and will withstand bluing salts. I also use HiForce for attaching the barrel band front ramp, the band swivel lug, and the rear sight island. The operating temperature of the silver solder does not damage or bow the barrel; I can place my fingers on the barrel a few inches away from the silver soldering area when attaching the lug. The trick is proper fluxing and tinning of the barrel and the lug before attaching the lug to the barrel. The two screws both align the lug when soldering and provide a clamping action when tightened before the solder cools and sets up.

The barrel lug on the original A-Square Hannibal (I had a 510) was TIG welded on. The barrel on my Hannibal was bowed 0.045” at the recoil lug area, a consequence of the high heat associated with TIG welding. Guess what this does to accuracy!

RE the 510 A-Square: In Hatari Times No. 22, Harald Wolf says: “We did a few velocity tests on A-Square cartridges and found them considerably slower then advertised.”

However, the 510 A-Square is still a very powerful cartridge even at slower than advertised velocity.

As you may gather from my rambling posts, I have expended considerable time over the years researching and building big bore rifles. I have tried to assimilate the best ideas from all in putting together my rifles, omitting the unsound techniques. From my industrial machining background, I like to use the term “Brute Force and Ugliness” in constructing big bore rifles, both for what comes out of the barrel and my somewhat robust method of big bore rifle construction.

Cheers and have fun on the project!

Edited by Altamaha (01/02/10 02:51 PM)


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Altamaha
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Reged: 29/12/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Washington State USA
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: chuck375]
      #152450 - 01/02/10 02:56 PM

Quote:

My 500 Jeffery is a 1-10" twist, seems to do just fine with 535g and 570g bullets too. I haven't shot anything heavier.

Chuck




10 inches is good, I plan on using 10 inch twist on my future big bore rifle projects. Next one will be a 500 Jeffery built in Schuler's style. But, this will be some time, as I have 4 rifles in work now.

Chuck, have you posted photos of your rifle? I would love to see it.

All this gun stuff keeps me busy in retirement!


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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
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Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: Altamaha]
      #152456 - 01/02/10 03:19 PM

Hi Altamaha, it's a CZ Safari Classic with AHR's #1 Upgrade (3 pos M70 type safety, single stage match trigger, and bolt straightened and filled). I had the CZ Custom Shop put two recoil reducers in it, so it weighs 11.25 lbs without scope, 12 lbs with, but the balance is perfect for me. I'm getting very good accuracy with 570g TSX's at 2250 fps. I bought 50 570g Swift A-Frames at the SCI Reno show to try out too... Should be good cape buffalo and brown bear medicine!





Regards,

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"


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Altamaha
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Reged: 29/12/08
Posts: 376
Loc: Washington State USA
Re: 510 Wells Build Questions [Re: chuck375]
      #152457 - 01/02/10 03:23 PM

Thanks Chuck, now I recall your earlier posts and photos when developing loads. Very nice rifle!

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