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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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gryphon
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Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s
      #150542 - 13/01/10 08:08 PM

My gunsmith has measured the bore dia of my 358 NM barrel (unfitted) at
.346.5 and after speaking to him tonight he is concerned i may have fouling or pressure build up with such a tight bore.
So can any one here have the answer whether it is an ok size or is to be of some concern..especially as I was going to run the Woodleigh Hydro`s through her.

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450_366
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: gryphon]
      #150547 - 13/01/10 08:40 PM

Sounds a bit tight, handgun caliber blanks are a bit taighter then the rifle barrels i believe, but
if its chambered for the 358NM, has it been used before?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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4seventy
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: gryphon]
      #150548 - 13/01/10 09:03 PM

I'm no gunsmith, but I would check out what the shank diameter is on the .358" Hydro's.
The idea of the bands on those, is that the bullet shank should not be in contact the rifling, so in theory the shank diameter should to be slightly less than your bore diameter.

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450_Ackley
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: 4seventy]
      #150550 - 13/01/10 09:24 PM

Most of the time you usually find that difference between bore and groove diameters on a modern barrel is about 8 thou, given that the groove diameter should be .358", it would seem appropriate that the bore diameter should be around .350". Yours at .346.5" could be a bit on the tight side.
Are you in a position to be able to name the brand of barrel?

DC

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500Nitro
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #150553 - 13/01/10 09:48 PM


Gryph

Yes, it is a bit tight, but as an example I have run
.411 bullets in a .408 bore of a double rifle without a problem and I am sure there are heaps of others who have done so as well.

I have also just put some Woodleigh Hydro's through one of my Big Bore Double Rifles (Westley Richards 500/465) which we were using to test them on Buffalo and I had a real close look at the recoveries to see what type of engraving had occurred. (As they were Woodleigh's bullets, the recoveries are with them so they may appear on the Woodleigh web site at some point.)

Anyway, I was impressed with the Hydro bullets - accuracy, terminal effect on game (Buffalo), all is good with my gun and I would have no problem using the Hydro bullets out of any of my double rifles.

FYI, with the limited number of bullets we had available, from the couple of tests we did, the POI of the Hydro's was
near enough the same as the Standard SN Woodleigh's.


So, re your 358NM, I would load up a few, test them and look for pressure signs and go from their.

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gryphon
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #150554 - 13/01/10 09:51 PM

Yes I can name it of course and dont see why I couldnt as I am only spruiking the gospel truth in the matter....MAB

Only a year ago I re barrelled my 7mm with a Mab s/less and its a great barrel..well its killed everything its poked at so far!

Nigel I have just been on the phone to Frank (hydro`s) re the barrel and the hydro`s for the last 45 mins..he suggests that at near on 12 thou its ferkin tight enough eh!

He is going to ask geoff mc`s (woodleigh) opinion tomorrow as GM has built a fair few rifles himself...the more opinion`s the better.

Now Rod (aka 9.3 x 57) has sent me some interesting stuff re the hydro`s and Frank will be emailing him tomorrow re some of his ideas.

Anyway back to the under size,i really do want a definitive opinion/answer as I dont want any of that ferkin OSR rearing its head in my 358 barrel haha.

--------------------
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500Nitro
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: gryphon]
      #150555 - 13/01/10 10:04 PM


Well, Geoff will know what to do as he is both a gunsmith and knowledgeable about bullets.

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450_366
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: 500Nitro]
      #150556 - 13/01/10 10:08 PM

Is it a blank or a used?
Lenght of barrel?
Make of Barrel?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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gryphon
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: 450_366]
      #150559 - 13/01/10 10:21 PM

It is brand new unfired..not even screwed onto the action,or cut to length...

MAB barrel.

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450_366
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: gryphon]
      #150560 - 13/01/10 10:37 PM

Reason for asking is that its close to the 357Magnum, and there ar a lot of full lenght around (550-600mm)

M.A.B? Like the belgium pistol?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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gryphon
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: 450_366]
      #150561 - 13/01/10 10:52 PM

Its a 358 Cal Norma Magnum barrel

MAB is the old name and they now call themselves TSE Engineering in Australia..most of us Aussies still call them MAB.

Everything I have read so far suggests the dia is too tight!

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4seventy
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: gryphon]
      #150563 - 13/01/10 10:56 PM

What is the (measured) groove diameter on that barrel?

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450_366
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: gryphon]
      #150564 - 13/01/10 10:59 PM

Scroll down a bit and you see the standard bores for the 358 versus 357

http://www.lothar-walther.de/160.php

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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4seventy
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: 500Nitro]
      #150565 - 13/01/10 11:06 PM

Quote:

I have run .411 bullets in a .408 bore of a double rifle



Yikes, that would be one very shot out barrel!

What you have really done is run .411" bullets in a .408" GROOVE of a double rifle, not .408" bore.

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xausa
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: gryphon]
      #150606 - 14/01/10 03:42 AM

If you're chiefly concerned about safety, the only important factor is the amount of neck clearance in the chamber. If the neck portion of the chamber is of sufficient diameter to allow the cartridge case neck to expand and release the bullet, such a minor difference in bullet/groove diameter should cause no problem.

After I had the neck of my wildcat .505 chamber opened up to provide sufficient neck clearance for the cartridge case, I routinely shot .510" bullets through my .505 barrel, which measures .495" in the bore and .505" in the groove. At the time, the only .505" bullets obtainable were the Barnes copper tubing bullets. They were not satisfactory. John Buhmiller used to say that a Barnes copper tubing solid made a good soft point.

Just out of curiosity, I once shot a wildebeest with one of the Barnes softs. The bullet hit him in the shoulder, knocked him down, he got up and walked a few steps, then collapsed. We were only able to recover fragments of the bullet, which had come to pieces upon hitting the shoulder.

.505 Gibbs being a proprietary cartridge, Kynoch would not sell the componants. They would sell the 570 grain .510" bullets for the .500 Nitro Express

The elephants and buffalo never complained about it, and the accuracy was unchanged.

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Bramble
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: xausa]
      #150615 - 14/01/10 05:45 AM

I don't believe that -.0035 is going to give you a problem there are a couple of considerations however:

You need a rotating pilot on the reamer ground to match the bore.
The neck should not be a problem as a standard reamer will cut the correct neck dia no matter what the bore.
Factory Saami or CIP ammunition is going to be OK as there is a margin built in.
With handloads then the max pressure may well be obtained before loading manual Max and it would be wise to back off 15% rather than the normal 10% to start.
You may well have to keep handloads .015 off the lands. With a tight bore a bullet starting close to the lands on a tight barrel may give somewhat higher pressures.

The plus side is that some maintain that tight bores are often the best shooters.

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AFRO408
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: Bramble]
      #150698 - 15/01/10 08:36 AM

I agree with Bramble in that it should not be a problem so long as you take the reloading carefully.

I wish you fellas would agree on whether you are talking about "groove" or " bore " diameters.

gryphon, did your 'smith say that the reamer pilot was tight in the bore ?

Cheers
Afro

--------------------
Flinch ? Wot flinch ? Gunsmithing is my PASSION.

Edited by AFRO408 (15/01/10 08:41 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: 4seventy]
      #150699 - 15/01/10 08:44 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have run .411 bullets in a .408 bore of a double rifle



Yikes, that would be one very shot out barrel!

What you have really done is run .411" bullets in a .408" GROOVE of a double rifle, not .408" bore.





well until the Yanks started demanding .408 bulets,
everyone was shooting .411 bullets.

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Homer
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: 500Nitro]
      #150718 - 15/01/10 12:46 PM

G'Day Fella's,

Gryphon, I would have thought that the Bore Diameter on a .358" caliber Rifle barrel would have been 0.350" !!!
I would contact the manufactures MAB/TSE and ask them about this, as they may have had this one slip through the cracks!!!
I'm sure/hope they would prefer to replace it, rather than get a bad reputation?

HooRoo
From
Hommer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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450_Ackley
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: Homer]
      #150724 - 15/01/10 01:27 PM

I suppose at the end of the day you need to ask yourself if it is worth spending the money getting the barrel threaded, chambered, crowned, fitted and blued (sights fitted maybe?)on a brrel that you do not have 100% confidence in.
I'd be quite sure if you contacted Tony at MAB, he would help you out, after all, he won't want any negative publicity about his product either.

DC

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gryphon
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #150729 - 15/01/10 03:17 PM

contacting Mab is extremely difficult on recent experience...I`m waiting for more from my `smith before I make the decision to keep or can.

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Homer
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: gryphon]
      #150736 - 15/01/10 03:58 PM

Gryphon, I assume you have all of MAB/TSE contact details but just in case;

Ph; 07 33 555 824 & 07 33 553 115
Fax; 07 33 556 776

E-mail; info@tsengineering.com.au

PO Box 72 Everton Park, Queensland, 4053.

HooRoo
From
Hommer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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gryphon
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: Homer]
      #150749 - 15/01/10 05:44 PM

Of course Hommer,its just that they have been remiss in answering ph calls and emails from my `smith to them after ordering the barrel which took FOUR months to arrive!

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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: gryphon]
      #151740 - 25/01/10 11:17 AM

Hi Hommer & Gryphon,

I have just spoken to MAB / TSE and have found out that they and a lot of other businesses in the area are having trouble with Telstra ever since they Telstra, upgraded the Internet in their area. MAB has had their computer guys in to no avail and are really Pi.... off as you can guess. I was told Emails may or may not get through as it is a matter of "Luck" on a daily basis... Not good.

Secondly, they are running at about 12 weeks to do Barrel fitting job and about 4-5 weeks to supply a barrel only unless it is already in stock.

I hope this may clarify some of the questions re them getting back to you.

Cheers,

Jeff Gray

--------------------


"Travel Light, Travel Fast and carry a Big Bore"

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Homer
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Re: Question for the gunsmiths Pro and Am`s [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #151773 - 25/01/10 04:30 PM

Thanks for the update Jeff!

Hommer.

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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