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tkv000
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My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY*
      #147649 - 11/12/09 04:14 PM

I just purchased my first SxS. I don't know much about shotguns so any info is appreciated, here's what I know:

CZ ZP-47
12 Gauge
2 3/4"
Made in 1977

Barrels say "Special Poldi Elektro" Like the Brno Shotguns

One barrel says "CHOKE 17.6" and the other "CHOKE 17.8" Why two different size chokes?

Previous owner states only 10 rounds though it, and it looks it. Everything is tight, fit and finish are (IMO) Very good, but I'm no expert.

The gun doesn't have an ounce of rust, what looks like rust is just the grease, I haven't had a chance to clean and shoot it yet.

And it came in a cool case, not sure if its a factory case, but it fits. Case is a bit worse for wear, but it works.

Other than that...not really sure



































--------------------
"…and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him,"

Edited by tkv000 (11/12/09 04:29 PM)


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sambarstalker
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: tkv000]
      #147658 - 11/12/09 09:09 PM

Interesting.... I´ve owned several of those Brnos (or CZ if you prefer). They were all sold in cardboard boxes. I´ve never seen a leg-o´-mutton case for them before. I am rather inclined to think the case was an after market purchase. Thank you for sharing.


Cheers sambarstalker


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450_366
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: sambarstalker]
      #147690 - 12/12/09 08:00 AM

Chopper lump? interesting.

I think the left barrel is a bit tighter to get another shot if the first one missed (game has mooved a bit further away).

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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tkv000
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: 450_366]
      #147697 - 12/12/09 10:07 AM

Quote:

Chopper lump? interesting.






I was wondering that myself, I've read about Chopper Lump barrels, but never seen any in person. These appear to be...if my reading is indeed true.


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mehulkamdar
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: tkv000]
      #147701 - 12/12/09 10:52 AM

Trev,

A very good friend in India who posts here has a beautiful Brno SxS in 12 Ga and he simply loves it. I shall ask him to post here.

You Canadians are lucky in getting some fantastic Brnos cheap. Over here, all of the older Brnos are too expensive compared to your country.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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alexbeer
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #147720 - 12/12/09 01:36 PM

Nice gun tkv000, and good photos too, thanks. I have a friend who has put some twelve thousand odd rounds through one of those exact same model CZ's in 12 gauge, with no problems. He can shoot it pretty well too

Best

Alex

alexbeer.com

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Details matter!


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ellenbr
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: alexbeer]
      #147770 - 13/12/09 12:52 AM

Nice example. Yes it has chopper lump Poldi steel tubes as well as a Purdey type nose as a 3rd bite. The sidelock has coil springs for the mainsprings like an early T&T Woodward(1882 patent but a boxlock). Sidelock with coil springs, Purdey nose and chopper lump Poldi steel tubes is an odd marriage on production gun. At first I didn't remember cocking indicators on non-engraved models but I had just forgotten. Just keep it clean and lightly lubricated so that the nose funtions properly. Typical of a European setup, the left tube is choked tighter than the right tube. Usually the trigger pull is a bit stiff and with a slight bit of tweaking it is a value for a field gun. A friend of mine has a non-engraved model like the ones forsale at Cabelas from the 1960s. Opening day and a few subsequent days he faired well with it and a few S&B #6s, which he had stuck back, on the every elusive ditch parrot. I see you blocked the serial number but did it have "77" in the date code? It is a product of the Wiepert craftsmen and forced mechanization. Early on the Bohemian craftsmen really didn't embrace mechaniaztion. Working in a town where there was an arsenal doesn't pair well with the production of sporting arms so the talented craftsmen faded into the sunset. The byproduct of a war machine and mechanization was the CZ double barrel shotgun. At any rate the following is some info on Poldi and the electric oven as well as other Poldi type steels:

In 1845 a rich coal deposit was found near Kladno and the Vojtech Smelting Works was founded by Vojtech Lana and the Klein brothers with Vojtech’s name. In 1857 the Prague Ironworks Company was formed and Austrian Karl Wittgenstein, became director after getting his start at a works in Teplitz and working up to director in 1877. Just prior to this in 1873 he married Leopoldina Kallmus. Vienna must have been a retail outlet or sales office but there could have been facilities there. At any rate he held an iron and steel monopoly in Bohemia and Moravia and was a buddy of Andrew Carnegie. He became the director of the Prague Ironworks Company and hung out his own shingle in 1889 by founding the Poldi Ironworks(Poldihutte) about 30 km outside of Prague. Poldi was named after his wife Leopoldina’s nickname, Poldi, or his pet name for her. In 1893 Poldi Ironworks applied for a trademark which was a image or likeness of a woman or Leopoldina with a 5 sided star above her head, which stood for the 5 continents of which Poldi Ironworks intended on dominating.
Poldi had several types of steel:
Poldi Anti-corro – I guess it may have a high chromium iron content
Poldi Elecktro – more than likely a hybrid electric ovens between Kjellin & Roechling(1st to utilize electric ovens)
Poldi Nickel Steel – probably high content nickel made in an acid open hearth
W02 – can’t say if it was barrel steel but I think auto(Thunderbolt??)
Victrix Special(Airplanes?) and I’m sure others

Post WWII, Commissioner Adolf Machac of Brno-CZ was head over an entity that was a conglomerate of Bittner, Fükert, Morgenstern, etc. His father was Antonin Machac, a firearms merchant for Fs. Dumoulin & Cie as well as a master craftsmen early on Antonin Machac married Frantisek Faukner’s sister which connected the 2 gunmaking powerhouses. Frantisek Faukner was born 9/16/1861 and was a master Cologne gunsmith in 1888 until 12/31/1909. Had many apprentices such as: Ostrava Gustav Tichy, Frantisek Pudebradska Lesak, Oldrich Vosmek from Chrudim, Frantisek Halir of Jicin, Pardubice Chomrak Vincent, etc. Faukner received a Prague business license on 11/11/1909 and closed his Cologne shop at the end of that year. I'm sure I have some additional info on CZ somewhere.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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tkv000
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: ellenbr]
      #147781 - 13/12/09 03:00 AM

Raimey,

Thank you very much for the info.

I *think* this stamp is the date code?



-Trev

--------------------
"…and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him,"


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ellenbr
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: tkv000]
      #147791 - 13/12/09 06:03 AM

Trev:


I saw that and it may be an additional stamp but I now see it on your standing breech pic and it looks to be something akin to XXXXXX-77 on the data string( confirming the 1977 date), which was where the date was post 1900. Apparently they also stamped the date above the obligatory smokeless powder proofmark, which may have been a condition post 1972. They may have been paralling the German configuration less the month. What is the initial on the forend lug? Is it a 6 3/4 lb or 7 lb gun? Also I failed to mention that it has the Anson pushrod type forend typical on a Belgian double.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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tkv000
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: ellenbr]
      #147841 - 13/12/09 03:46 PM

Raimey,

I just checked, the serial number data sting is as you describe 1-XXXXXX-77

I also fired up my digital fish scale, and the gun weigh's in at 6lbs, 12 ounces right on the nose.

As for the marking on the forend lug, its really had to photograph, but I'll try to describe it:

There is a deep "f" but what you can't see is coming out of the right side of that "f" are two lines that originate from about 1/4 way up the "f", There not stamped as deep, and the lower on isn't as long as the upper one, you can sort of make out the one that goes upwards in this photograph, and one identical that goes down is present, but didn't pick up in the photograph.









I really appreciate all this information. There's little info on the Brno's and CZ's out there.

Thanks.

-Trev


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ellenbr
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: tkv000]
      #147898 - 14/12/09 05:45 AM

Trev:
Nice effort on the pics and after you describe the "K" mark I can see it well.

I think the stamp is a “fk” monogram for the craftsman/mechanic who fitted the tubes to the action, and he may have finished the longarm. I’m not familiar with post WWII CZ craftsmen, especially 30 years later, but it could be something like Frantisek Krnka, but I can’t say that such a person exists. Info on the craftsmen post say 1965 is scarce. As stated below I think Vaclav Holek to be a possibility of the origins of the Brno/CZ doubles but I can’t see the “fk” forend lug stamp to be a “fH”.

Here’s a possible timeline on the ZP Models. All the ones I’ve handled were sidelocks with coil springs and I think the toplever spring was also of the coil variety. They had the Purdey Nose and were choked extra full left and modified right. I could be mistaken, but the Models were ZP 47, ZP 49, ZP 50, etc(ZP749??). surfaced after WWII and up till 1950. For now I think the “ZP” to stand for Zbrojovka Praga as a possible reference or name resurrection. The Communist were in control in 1948 so arms after then should be marked “Narodny Podnik” / State Enterprises when Brno/CZ experienced nationalization. I’m not sure just how long the “N.P. or Narodny Podnik” stamp was used but even today it can be found on Czechvar, the “Preminum Czech Lager”. Going back in time a bit to post WWI in 1918 when A. Nowtony formed Zbrojovka Praga in Prague. He and his klan of gunsmiths were manufacturing the Praga pistols and perfecting the Praga M-24 alloy machine-gun. His list of gunsmiths at least contained the names of Emanuel, Frantisek and Vaclav Holek, Karel Krnka and Frantisek Myska.

Emanuel Holek was an apprentice to J. Nowotny of Prague and after Zbrojovka Praga was liquidated in 1926, joined Ceska Zbrojovka of Strakonice and then in 1927 was on to Zbrojovka Brno in 1927.

Vaclav Holek(1886-1954) apprenticed in Pisek before working in Vienna in 1905 for Mulacz. Five years later he was back with Nowotny of Prague making H&H style sidelock scatterguns. Then he joined his brother Emanuel at Zbrojovka Praja researching the Praga M-24 and moved on to Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka, Brno after the 1926 liquidation. This fella could be the source of the ZP design.

Frantisek Holek(1894-1951) worked in Moscow and joined the Zbrojovka Praja ground in 1919 straightaway to chief of design. Upon the 1926 liquidation, Frantisek left to work for Frantisek Janecek, electrical engineer, who had attempted a business at tool, die and precision instrument which failed and sent he back to marking weapons in Prague about the time the Zbrojovka Praja experience failure. Janecek was into ammo, arms and autos.

Karel Krnka(April 6th, 1858 – Feb. 25th, 1926) was more of a theorist in gun design as well as writer. He apprenticed to his father, Sylvestr Krnka, who had been an apprentice to the Viennese gunamker Nowtony in the 1840s. Considering expiring in 1926, I don’t think he had much to do with the ZP series.

Frantisek Myska of Dvory at the age of 14 in 1913 was an apprentice to gunmaker Bedrich Kopriva of Nymburk(active from 1890 – 1925) from 1913 to 1917. On his Journeyman walkabout he worked for Austrian Emil Skoda, who in 1869 purchased the workshop of Graf Arnost after being deported from Germany due to the 7 Weeks War in 1866. Skoda made arms as well as opened a steel process facility in 1884. But getting back to Myska, he attended the technical college in Prague from 1919 to 1921 and joined Zbrojovka Praga in 1922. He designed pistols as well as the CZ 241 auto-loader.

Now onto the different Czech Zbrojovka companies. Karel Bubla founded the South Bohemian Arms Company, Jihoceska Zbrojovka, in 1919 to make the 6.35mm Fox pistols by hand and mechanization didn’t occur until 1920. Man and material was moved to Strakonice in early 1921. Ceska Zbrojovka(CZ – Bohemian Arms Company), Prague was formed in 1922 by uniting Jihoceska Zbrojovka and the Hubertus Company, which one I’m not sure of. But at this union and founding of CZ, the government shifted the pistol making operation of Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka, (ZB – Czechoslovakian Arms Company), Brno to CZ at Prague, which made tools as of 1928, bicycles in 1930 and motorcycles in 1934. And in 1955 due the auto and motorcycle effort, a sub was as Ceske Zavody Motocyklove which I think was a name change of an earlier 0.22” caliber sporting division under the Zavody name. ZB was formed in 1923 to absorb/purchase the government entity of Ceskoslovenske Zavody na Vyrobu Zbrani(CSZ –Czechoslovakian Factory for Military Products, Brno, which was a small arms factory or refurb facility which began in 1919 to refurb Mauser and Mannlicher rifles. If I’m not mistaken, CZ-N.P.(Ceska Zbrojovka Narodny Podnik(State Entity/Enterprise) makes sporting weapons in Brno and some of the aforementioned gunsmiths were instrumental in beginning the ZP Side by Side series. CZ-USA - http://www.cz-usa.com/about_cz_ub.php and CZ- http://www.czub.cz/ .

Ceska Zbrojovka(CZ – Bohemian Arms Company), Prague

Ceskoslovenska Zbrojovka, (ZB – Czechoslovakian Arms Company), Brno

Ceskoslovenske Zavody na Vyrobu Zbrani(CSZ –Czechoslovakian Factory for Military Products, Brno

Any and all feel free to correct or help me sort it out. As always I invite any and all additional information.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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tkv000
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: ellenbr]
      #147900 - 14/12/09 05:56 AM

Again thanks for the wealth of Info.

I'm a big Brno/CZ fan, I've got several ZKK 602 rifles, and when it came time to purchase a new SxS shotgun, I explored the new offerings from CZ. I was surprised to find they no long manufacture there own shotguns, and there instead built in Turkey. I've heard mixed reviews on the quality of the new models, but handled a few at my local gunshop, and found I didn't like the single trigger system on the new models. So I started looking for an older CZ/Brno and I spotted this on for sale by a local vendor. I paid 1/4 or less than the price of a new CZ, so I'm very happy.

Indecently, which trigger is usually first pulled on a SxS with duel triggers? I have to assume the front one?

Thanks again.

-Trev

--------------------
"…and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him,"


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ellenbr
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: tkv000]
      #147906 - 14/12/09 06:58 AM

Trev:

Many of the single triggers on the scatterguns you mention fail, whether they are 2 stage or 3 stage triggers. I for one really dislike single triggers because they are problematic but I do shoot a Browning O/U with a single selective from time to time. Which trigger you pull is dependent on the application as well as the chokes. Many of today writers devalue, for want of a better term, or even dismiss the potential of 2 triggers, 2 chokes and 2 different shot sizes but I think them to be armchair hunters/shooters and haven't practiced/shot enough to use the variables effectively. You will need a frame of reference. I use the back of the triggerbow guard and usually pull the back trigger 1st unless there isn't a distance shot first. You could use the front also. If you are shooting the same shotsize, the tighter choked tube is going to be for the longer range and the more open tube for the shorter range, of course. But this statement hinges on the huge assumption that one has patterned the double and knows the pattern variations with respect to shot sizes. It is possible that the right tube could pattern one specific shot size tighter than the left, but this is not the norm. If you are shooting mixed bag, say prairie chicken, pheasant, quail and possibly a slight chance for turkey, a possible combination you would want would be a No. 5(U.S. of A.) in the left and No. 6 or 7 in the right. I shoot 65mm a lot and use RST 1 1/16 No.5s in the left and Gamebore Fs #6(British) in the right. But even with 2 3/4" chambers with it being a 6lb 12oz double you are probably going to stay below 1 1/4 oz shot charge and I'd stay around 9k psi for the most part.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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RHB
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: ellenbr]
      #148206 - 17/12/09 01:48 PM

Herewith a few pics of a ZP49 that you may find useful.

















































There is a little more information at http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=94631&an=0&page=2#Post94631


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mehulkamdar
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: RHB]
      #148256 - 18/12/09 04:18 AM

Thanks, Rustam! Wish I had your skills working with guns at home!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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ellenbr
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #148355 - 20/12/09 12:51 AM

RHB:

Lovely, lovely show & tell. I hope you didn't have any components left over when you reassembled it. What about a pic of the forend lug? Was there a set of initials there?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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RHB
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: ellenbr]
      #148365 - 20/12/09 03:32 AM

Quote:

I hope you didn't have any components left over when you reassembled it.






There are no initials on the fore-end lug but there is a number.



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tkv000
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: ellenbr]
      #148367 - 20/12/09 03:41 AM

I Love the straight stock on that ZP49!

I got my fist kill with my ZP47 today. First time I shot it too!

I live on a small acreage, and we have outdoor cats that help cull the mouse population, they do a great job of it, and we feed them as well. We have magpie birds that are consistently eating all the outdoor cat food, not to mention they usually wake me up on weekends with there constant chatter.

I've tried for weeks to get them with the pump shotgun, but there sly, every time they hear the slightest creek of the door, there gone.

Except today I got up early, its a beautiful -3C and light fluffy snow is falling, so decided I would take the new double out for a test run. They of course scattered as soon as I went outside, but I went down to the closest bush and waited there return.

I cracked the Brno open and slid two shells in, flicking it back closed and marveled to myself how much more elegant the SxS was compared to my pump guns. I also noted that the safety returns to safe each time its opened, and how light the gun felt in my hands. And waited.

About 10 minutes later the first bird returned for his snack. He perched in a tree close, scanning the area for cats or dangers, not seeing me, I shifted my weight to get a better angle, the snow creeked under my boot, and he took flight. As if I had owned the gun all my life, it snapped to my shoulder, I instinctively slid the safety forward to the off position, and pulled the rear trigger. He fell from the sky 50 paces away, and the Brno had its first firing, and first kill all in one.





I know its not the most exciting hunting story one will read on Nitroexpress, but my heart was sure pumping, and I love my new Brno.

-Trev

--------------------
"…and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him,"


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ellenbr
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: tkv000]
      #148381 - 20/12/09 07:04 AM

Trev:

There isn't a hunting/shooting story with a double that isn't exciting or wouldn't be an enjoyable read especially with pics. When I glanced at the 1st pic I thought it was the pattern hitting the bird. I was wondering how you pulled that off. Boattails and magpies are an excellent way to train a dog to retrieve.

In RHB's last frame pic you can see the rod that activates the autosafety.

RHB:

Thanks for the effort on the forend. I've had a few in parts and for me usually the toplever/spindel is the most difficult to get apart.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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RHB
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: ellenbr]
      #148411 - 20/12/09 05:04 PM

My pleasure, ellenbr. Would you know what that number refers to?

The gun was pretty tatty at the time of purchase and left me little choice but to learn how to disassemble a shotgun completely. Despite that, removing the nail/spindle and toplever wasn't exactly difficult, though I did have to study the working of the inner parts.

Would I be right to assume that you have worked on other toplever shotguns and find them easier to dismantle compared to the Brno ZP series?

One thing I did find very difficult was removing the faux hinge pin cover as I had to rehinge the gun. Made a new lock (?) as well as part of the original was broken though it did not affect the working of the gun.





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RHB
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: RHB]
      #148412 - 20/12/09 05:06 PM

tkv000: Had a good chuckle reading your tale. Here's wishing you many more wonderful days and memories afield.

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ellenbr
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: RHB]
      #148438 - 21/12/09 01:03 AM

RHB:
The "1361" is just an assembly number(or maybe serial number??) and should be on all major components as I see it on the underside of the top strap of the frame as well as the auto-safety rod. Piles of similar components were at a craftsmen's bench/station and his task was to finish a particular component. Then groups of components were brought together and assembled via their respective numbers. I offer the possiblity as the serial number as there are other numbers on the top strap and if those same numbers are on other components, they might be the assembly number. The "1315" is the the 1315th example to pass thru the Brno/Wiepert proofhouse in 1949. I meant to comment on the wear on the locking bar, which may indicated that many heavy shot charges have been ignited in it. And a follow up was that I intended to ask how you over came that because the lock-up is an essential component coupled with the nose. Both have to be kept pretty clean.

Age, use & wear seem to have a large impact on disassembly and a Brno in somewhat tattered condition just may be more difficult to get apart but by design it seems to have been made for easier component replacement. The couple that I've handled actually were gummed up with crud and old oil in the frame.

Very nice effort in the restoration.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


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RHB
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Re: My first SxS CZ-ZP47 *NOT DIAL UP FRIENDLY* [Re: ellenbr]
      #148608 - 22/12/09 06:35 PM

Thank you, ellenbr.

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