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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re-hooking a set of Barrels
      #147387 - 07/12/09 03:18 PM

I was just wanting anybody's input on re-hooking a set of barrels that are off face. I have the 2nd edition of Brown's book in which he has a chapter on this. He states that sometime you can just spin the pin. My shotgun is a Sauer, which I believe screws in, so I think I need to use the method he illustrates in his book. Again though, I didn't know if this was something other members had ran into???

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500Nitro
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: Metalguy]
      #147388 - 07/12/09 03:34 PM

If the pin can be taken out, it can be chromed to make it larger or a new pin made that is larger.

Alternatively, the hook could be sleeved or have an insert put in it to make it tighter.

Those are 2 methods I know of.

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: 500Nitro]
      #147389 - 07/12/09 03:51 PM

Do you happen to know a method to tell just how much off face they are? I would imagine there is some type of "industry standard" for the clearance from the standing breech to the chambers???

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500Nitro
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: Metalguy]
      #147390 - 07/12/09 04:04 PM


Get a set of spark plug gauges which are set up or different clearances.

Whichever one fits between the barrels and the face of the action.

That is of course if there is a gap.

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: 500Nitro]
      #147392 - 07/12/09 06:15 PM

Some years ago there was a setup with a brush that uses elektro plating at specific areas, this was also used to add material to the lugs and so on to build them up.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: 450_366]
      #147411 - 08/12/09 03:14 AM

Do you suppose you could tig weld material back on and fit it in with files?

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500Nitro
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: Metalguy]
      #147414 - 08/12/09 04:16 AM

I have heard of tig welding the hook and then filing them down.

I'm not a welder so not sure whether it is good or not (the heat etc).

Edited by 500Nitro (08/12/09 04:50 AM)

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: 500Nitro]
      #147416 - 08/12/09 04:22 AM

I've done enough here in the sheetmetal shop to get me in trouble.

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: Metalguy]
      #147417 - 08/12/09 04:37 AM

Quote:

Do you suppose you could tig weld material back on and fit it in with files?



some guy's do it over here, and it seems to work for them, soooo ?

i hav'nt tryed it myself yet, but there seems to some merit to the process. just be very careful about the heat

best

peter

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: peter]
      #147420 - 08/12/09 05:39 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Do you suppose you could tig weld material back on and fit it in with files?



some guy's do it over here, and it seems to work for them, soooo ?

i hav'nt tryed it myself yet, but there seems to some merit to the process. just be very careful about the heat

best

peter



Yeah the weld gets hard as glas so it will be a pain to get to fit, but it should work if performed carefully.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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BlainSmipy
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Reged: 24/11/05
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: Metalguy]
      #147422 - 08/12/09 06:29 AM

Quote:

I was just wanting anybody's input on re-hooking a set of barrels that are off face. I have the 2nd edition of Brown's book in which he has a chapter on this. He states that sometime you can just spin the pin. My shotgun is a Sauer, which I believe screws in, so I think I need to use the method he illustrates in his book. Again though, I didn't know if this was something other members had ran into???



Brownells sells a kit to do just this. It has reamers and over sized pins.

brownells.com

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #147427 - 08/12/09 07:20 AM

PERFECT!! That sounds like a winner

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: Metalguy]
      #147435 - 08/12/09 09:11 AM

The method used often depends on the design of the particular action involved.
Tig welding the hook, to build it up, is a method which is usually used on actions which have an integral hinge pin, like the Webley for example.
Webley DR actions have their hinge pin machined as part of the action frame and therefore it cannot be replaced with an oversize pin.
The original method with this style of action, before Tig welding was available, was to dovetail a piece of steel into the hook.

Personally, on an action which has a removable hinge pin, I would rather leave the hook alone, and instead machine a new oversize pin.

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: 4seventy]
      #147436 - 08/12/09 09:30 AM

The hinge pin appears to be screwed in from both sides. I'm guessing I will have to make a new one?

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: Metalguy]
      #147437 - 08/12/09 09:37 AM

Quote:

The hinge pin appears to be screwed in from both sides. I'm guessing I will have to make a new one?



I think those are plugs that unscrew.

--------------------
You horde gold, I horde lead.

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4seventy
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #147438 - 08/12/09 10:09 AM

Quote:

Quote:

The hinge pin appears to be screwed in from both sides. I'm guessing I will have to make a new one?



I think those are plugs that unscrew.



Yes, most likely threaded plugs which will require removal.
On side by side guns, it is often necessary to also remove one or both cocking levers to be able to access the hinge pin.

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4seventy
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: Metalguy]
      #147439 - 08/12/09 10:27 AM

It's wise to check what is actually the cause of the off face condition.
It can be caused by wear at the pin and hook, but also it can be the result of wear at the engagement of the bolting with the barrel bites. It can also be a combination of both hinge and bolting wear.
If the bolting and barrel bites are worn excessively, the barrels will not be drawn to a fully closed position, and this can lead to a gap between the barrel face and the standing breech.

You can check for hinge and hook wear by shimming the pin.
Ordinary paper is fine for this just to see if it brings the barrels back on the face.
You are not shooting the gun here, just trying to find what is the cause of the looseness.

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #147447 - 08/12/09 03:33 PM

Thanks for the tip about Brownell's. I found the kit.

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DaleS
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Reged: 17/11/09
Posts: 12
Loc: ny
Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: Metalguy]
      #147471 - 09/12/09 01:31 AM

An easy way to check if increasing your pin dia. will tighten your action is to put a small piece
of scotch tape in the hook and close the action. You can also determine how much bigger the pin needs to be by the number of shims it takes to close the gap (my tape meas. .0015) and this
would let you know if you need a new pin or a new bolt.

Kind of makes you wonder what your Greener cross bolt is doing!

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: DaleS]
      #147474 - 09/12/09 02:03 AM


DaleS

Have you ever found a Greener cross bolt to do anything ?

I haven't - seen more "loose" actions with greener cross bolts
than most others.

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DaleS
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Reged: 17/11/09
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Loc: ny
Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: 500Nitro]
      #147482 - 09/12/09 05:40 AM

I just checked a 16ga action I was planning to build a 9.3x74 DR on this winter. The cross bolt is .012 smaller in dia. than the rib hole, this action however has a small dolls head alsoand is still tight.

How important is the fit of the underlugs for the strenght of the action?
It would seem that if you repin the action you would take the underlugs off face.

If your pin has bent or worn might it be that your action has just seated its self, underlugs
now tight to action maybe cross bolt now touching rib. If so (and the bolt is tight) would you be better off leaving the action as is and letting you new barrels extend to the face of the action?
I think that Metalguy is planing a DR with action.

Just wondering.

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500Nitro
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Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: DaleS]
      #147484 - 09/12/09 06:22 AM


Re the Greener cross Bolt, I thought that the bolt was acutally slightly tapered.

Either way, I don't like the Cross Bolt actions.

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Metalguy
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Reged: 25/10/09
Posts: 152
Loc: Northern WY
Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: DaleS]
      #147486 - 09/12/09 08:59 AM

As far as my action goes, it appears that the radius on the front underlug is ever so slightly worn away. If I look close I can see daylight. In Ellis Brown's 2nd edition which I have, I think the shotgun he re-hooked was very loose. I am just concerned about mine. I'm sure it would be ok but I'm not putting all the money into this project and not doing it right! IMHO if you fit a larger pin into the action, it will theoretically move the barrels back towards the standing breech. I'm assuming you would then need to fit the underlug to the new pin diameter. Brown also states that you don't want to install too large of a pin as it will weaken the action. I am starting to agree with most members regarding the Greener crossbolt. My Sauer has one, but it seems to me if you do have catastrophic failure, what the hell is that little thing gonna do? They do look cool though. I can imagine that if the lugs gave out during firing of the weapon, the barrels would flip forward violently and relieve any pressure right in your face. I don't think that little pin can hold several tons of energy. But then again, I'm far from an engineer.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: Metalguy]
      #147490 - 09/12/09 09:52 AM


You reckon the cross bolt looks cool ?
Sorry, have to disagree with you there.


As for catastrophic failure, in reality how many occur
and if they do, it is normally the barrels that let go,
not the action / barrel joint.

And how many hooks have you sen "let go" ?

BTW - Are you barrels chopper lump or other ?


If you are worried about strength / holding together,
buy a Webley !!!

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Re-hooking a set of Barrels [Re: Metalguy]
      #147491 - 09/12/09 10:02 AM

Metalguy,
I had this discussion some time ago on here about Greener crossbolts that don't touch the inside of the hole in the rib extension. My feeling is that the crossbolt is mostly a sales gimmic to sell you on the idea that these are stronger than other actions. The fact is that most of the ones I have checked don't touch at all and for the crossbolt to do any good in a catistrophic event, the underlugs would have to stretch before the crossbolt even came into contact with the hole in the rib extension.
The two underlugs have a lot more steel in them and much more area of contact that the crossbolt would ever have, even if it fitted tightly to start with. We had all kind of agreed that the crossbolt was kind of like an insurance policy, you hope you never need to depend on it, but if you do, you're glad you have it there to add extra strength. Personally I think it is mostly a sales gimmick, But, I have several guns with crossbolts on them.
If your gun has two threaded pin caps, you may find that your gun uses a straight untapered hingepin. You then have to go up to the next standard straight hingepin. The problem with that is that I have not been able to find anyone who sells the straight untapered hingepin blanks. All Brownells carry are tapered. Maybe you could have someone with a lathe turn you a new oversized pin. Good luck on your project. Bob H.

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