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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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mauserand9mm
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Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM
      #146466 - 23/11/09 02:38 PM

Seems to be a common problem that there are feeding issues with a high pecentage of these rifles. I understand that the longer 458 Lott doesn't have this problem (but I have heard of one case of a CZ550 in 458 Lott that does experiences jams).

One guy I know diagnosed jamming in his 458 only if the round was on the left hand side of the magazine. It doesn't appear to be an issue with the loading ramp but more getting caught up inside the action (on the upper bolt lug [left hand lug when the action is open] camming section?).

Does anyone here have first hand experience with this and have they managed to solve it (apart from rechambering to a different cartridge like the Lott)? The importers over here don't offer any solutions.

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9.3x57
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #146467 - 23/11/09 02:46 PM

I do not have any direct experience, but do have experience with getting a 6.5x55 CZ to feed...once it was converted to 9.3x62...

Watch the rounds as you feed them thru the action. Watch the RELEASE of the round from the mag and where that puts the case head vis-a-vis the extractor. I found that the shorter 6.5 round popped out of control of the action rails before it was under the control of the extractor. It never popped up under the extractor, rather...jumped head of it.

You comment on the Lott feeding more reliably than the shorter Win Mag got my attention.

If the case releases from the action rails prematurely, I don't think there is anything you can do except go to a longer case, meaning in this situation, the Lott.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: 9.3x57]
      #146468 - 23/11/09 02:53 PM

The rim slides in under the extractor okay and the jam usually happens with the case about 1/3 of the way into the action (and on the upward angle while 'leaving' the magazine). The reason the Lott presents less of a problem is (I think) that being longer there is less of an angle as it enters the action recess while the head of the case comes out of the magazine.

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DGR375
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #146476 - 23/11/09 07:14 PM

African Hunter magazine, vol15 No1, from page 18 , has an article on PH exams, and discusses this very point






Hope this is of interest.

It seems that the 458 in the cz550 should be built on the standard sized action rather than the magnum action?

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: DGR375]
      #146485 - 23/11/09 11:15 PM

Excellent - thanks for posting the article. Sounds like it's a lost cause to try and save it in 458. I wonder if anyone has tried spacers in the magazine? My Israeli M98 Mauser has a spacer at the front of the magazine so that the short 308 cartridge is kept toward the rear so that the rim has a chance of being picked up under the extractor. Then again some old 98's will allow the extractor to spring over the rim if the case is pushed ahead of it into the chamber (mine won't). Some Israelis don't have the spacer and still work, but this is a different problem to the 458 issue.

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9.3x57
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #146495 - 24/11/09 12:33 AM

Yes, m&9, you might be "stuck" with the Lott.

The angle of entry is the thing, and that is controlled by release from the magazine. This is why my 9.3x62 feeds perfectly, but the 6.5x55 would not.

I "proved" my theory when the gun was a 6.5x55 by assembling a cobbled up dummy round using a .30-06 case and a 9.3 bullet. It became obvious that the longer round would release properly and angle of entry would be correct, so I had the rebarrel done. Works slick as a lie thru Barry now.

The good thing about the Lott is that it can be loaded to whatever speed you like; full Lott or downloaded to .458 Mag or even lower to .45-70. Not a bad deal, really.

By the way, tho I very much like the Ruger M77MKII and Hawkeye actions, the issue described in the article with the Ruger M77MKII {Win 70-style ejector} is correct. This concern also applies to the Win 70 and CZ with their similarly designed ejectors. But both the Win 70 and CZ normally have much stronger springs.

I experienced this failure in one MKII in 6.5x55 which otherwise worked perfectly. Hard, fast, vigorous working of the bolt would leave the case inexplicably in the feed trough. Then we figured out what was happening. As the article says, a harder spring should be installed by Ruger. But we whipped the problem by bevelling the ejector slot with a jeweler's file. There were burrs that needed to be removed. High polish of the ejector itself makes it work slicker. Any M&&MKII or Hawkeye, should be RIGOROUSLY worked to prove the ejection of rounds. Because fast working of the bolt is required to cause the malfunction. And when does a fellow need to work the bolt fast????

Regardless, this veering from the original 98 design exposes yet again the genious of Mauser; the original is hard to beat.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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gwindrider1
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: 9.3x57]
      #146515 - 24/11/09 04:17 AM

I have the CZ in .458 WM, and have had no problems at all with feeding. It has sucked up everything I have run into it with ease. With the very long throat in these rifles, I do tend to seat my bullets out pretty long. Maybe this is helping, but even the stubby flat nosed Hornady 350's slide right in!

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: gwindrider1]
      #146552 - 24/11/09 09:50 AM

I've been told that 1 in 2 of the CZ 458s will work without a problem - interesting the criticality of the timing of release from the magazine appears to be at the tolerance of the manufacturing of the firearm, which makes me hope that there may be a easier fix than to rechamber (probably easy to mess up too if I'm not careful). Probably can't compare a working CZ against a jamming CZ to pick the difference to be able to fix easily.

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9.3x57
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #146560 - 24/11/09 01:03 PM

Quote:

timing of release from the magazine appears to be at the tolerance of the manufacturing of the firearm,



It would be interesting to line up 4 or five and look at the placing of the action rail shoulders and see if there is any noticeable difference.

Anyway, if the mags are the same length, a rechamber is easy, yes? Isn't it as easy as running a reamer into the chamber? IIRC, a .458 chamber needs only to be lengthened with the Lott reamer.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Con
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: 9.3x57]
      #146929 - 29/11/09 03:46 PM

It's been a 'known issue' for donkeys years as have the splitting stocks. I've had a CZ and Zastava which where both tempermental feeders. In Africa you can solve the issue by shooting solids only, ... the factory 510gr Winchester soft was a disaster in both my rifles but particularly the CZ. The CZ was fixed permanently by conversion to 458Lott, the Zastava by shifting to the 480gr Woodleigh soft. In both CZ and Zastava, replacing the Winchester soft with a Woodleigh 500gr was another fix.

Ultimately, get a good gunsmith to iron out the bugs.
Cheers...
Con

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4seventy
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: Con]
      #146942 - 29/11/09 09:54 PM

I had a Brno 602 .458 backup rifle some time back. It used to feed Woodleigh and Hornady 500gn softs very well.
Winchester factory softpoints would often cause feeding problems.
The Winchester factory softpoints had a larger diameter of exposed lead at the nose of the bullet, and this would sometimes snag the edge of the extractor recess on the right side of the barrel chamber.

I solved this problem by selling the 602, and replacing it with a .470 double.

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Homer
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: 4seventy]
      #146972 - 30/11/09 02:06 PM

G'Day Fella's,

I have had some experience with this Most Frustrating of problems!
Magazine feeding problems, is one of the most time consuming and difficult problems to solve.

As Con and 4seventy have stated, the problem is not always the firearm but can be the ammo.
With the firearm, it can be the follower and the feed lips of the magazine box or the profile of the bottom of the action and or feed ramp. Carefully compare these parts/areas if you can against another, same brand firearm that operates without fault.
If everything appears to be OK with these, then look at your ammo for a solution.
The non-bottle necked .458 Win Mag cartridge itself, may actually be the problem?

Sorry, I can't be of much more assistance to you than that.

HooRoo
From
Homer

--------------------
"Beware the Lolly Pop of Mediocrity,
Lick it Once and You Will Suck Forever"

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Con
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: Homer]
      #146983 - 30/11/09 11:33 PM

One thing I did when I had mine converted to a 458Lott ... give the 'smith dummies loaded with pulled 510gr Winchester softs. If they can get that projectile feeding reliably, just about anything will feed.

Shame about the Winchester soft too ... its a magnificent projectile for soft skinned game like Sambar. I used to pull them and replace with a 480gr Woodleigh to get the factory ammunition feeding reliably. Worst scenario in a BGRC shoot had 3 of 5 (one magazine) fail to feed ... always from the left from memory.
Cheers...
Con

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: Con]
      #147395 - 07/12/09 09:33 PM

Picked up my 458 and ran some rounds (factory 510gn Wunchesters with the large lead tip) through the action, same ones (without firing them) in the same position in the magazine each time. The second and sixth loaded round (both sit in the left hand side of the magazine) are the ones that give problems. The sixth can be cured easily by loading to the rear of the magazine. If the second and first were at the rear of the magazine the problem was improved but not completely eliminated. I messed around with a temporary shim in the front of the magazine and it seemed to fix the problem, but the lead was badly chewed at that point and I didn't want to destroy any more projectile points.

I noticed that when second round is at the front of the magazine it will do a quick short flip up and to the right as it enters the action (I think that it may be the belt of the second round sliding off, and jumping, the belt of the first round?) and will jam inside that part of the action (as 4seventy had said). I'll make a better quality shim and insert in the front of the magazine and then see how that works. Then again I'll probably use the Woodleighs for reloads anyway and won't have the problem, but I'm keen to see if there is a simple solution.

Summary of round condition after about 30 cycles each: the lead portion of round number two was badly chewed, next in line of chewed-ness was round 6 (which had also jammed) and then equally round 5 and 1 (none of these had jammed and I was suprised that they were marked). Rounds 3 and 4 had very minor marks on them.

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bwananelson
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #147400 - 07/12/09 10:53 PM

i jus got a cz i will reload for it i wonder if barnes will do the same,i have several boxes. or when they are done just buy woodliegh.range firing wont be an issue.and when i go to africa i promised myself a classic double hunt all the way.

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

Edited by bwananelson (08/12/09 01:45 AM)

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4seventy
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #147434 - 08/12/09 08:54 AM

Perhaps the Woodleigh PP bullets, 500 or 400 grain, could solve a lot of the feed dramas in these rifles. PP's were not available when I was using my Brno .458, so I never had the chance to try them in it.
They have a spitzer ogive with no exposed lead at the nose, so it should be way easier to get them to feed nicely, compared to the round nose profile bullets.

The .458 is capable of really flattening the exposed lead on round nose projectiles (in the magazine) from recoil, and this can create more feed problems, that might not show up when using dummy rounds.
Also the rounds in the mag can/will move forward from recoil in that long magazine.

A spacer at the front of the magazine which keeps the cartridges to the rear, plus the use of PP projectiles, plus some fine tuning of both the follower angle and spring tension, should get things working properly.
I'm sure you will get it sorted out soon.
Best of luck with it.

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chuck375
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: 4seventy]
      #147453 - 08/12/09 05:44 PM

My CZ 550 is chambered in 500 Jeffrey. Mine feeds a combination of Woodleigh 535g softs, 570g TSXs and 570g banded solids absolutely fine from the magazine. It is a little quirky about the magazine spring, you have to make sure as you load the last cartridgie it springs up a bit. If you do that, all rounds feed flawlessly. Not sure if it's a slightly week Magazine springs, rough spot in the feeding or what, but I'm going to have my local gunsmith, Kevin Weaver, fix that this winter and put on a brighter flouresecnt red dot front sight. So feed problems are minimal considering it was a conversion from 375 H&H to 500 Jeffrey.

Chuck

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: chuck375]
      #147505 - 09/12/09 03:03 PM

Just realised that I forgot to mention that the 458 I purchased was an almost brand new CZ with known feeding problems. The previous owner returned it and claimed warranty (money back). I shoot at the same club as the previous owner and got a strange reaction from him when he found out that I'd bought it (at a heavily discounted price and without warranty) - news travels fast in these circles.

The LHS feed ramp has had a large portion ground out of it to try and stop the rounds jumping up and to the right but the projectile is actually past the ramp when this happens so it doesn't do anything.

Most of the rounds appear to be contacting the lug raceways even if they don't actually jam the action, as evidenced by the damage to the (wide) lead tips of the Winchester projectiles.

Edited by mauserand9mm (09/12/09 03:05 PM)

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bwananelson
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #147520 - 10/12/09 12:28 AM

what about the barnes bullet

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: bwananelson]
      #147554 - 10/12/09 09:58 AM

Oh yes, I should not have forgotten Barnes. I'll certainly try those out. The Barnes are very expensive over here and I'll probably end up mainly sticking to the Woodleighs, or others. Taipans shoot very well in every other calibre I've tried and they are the cheapest, but production is somewhat limited these days and they are harder to get. I've been stocking up on Taipans in 375 - there's usually some partially used packets on sale at the gun shows in Brisbane. I intend to contact Taipan and see what the deal is with putting an order in. I'm not sure what weights/configurations are available in the Taipan .458 range.

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Con
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #147623 - 11/12/09 12:09 PM

mauserand9mm,

Is the projectile with the large lead nose on the right between the 500gr Woodleigh and 400gr PP Woodleigh kind of what your looking for? Under $25 per 50 from memory.
Taipan only makes a limited number of 45cal projectiles ... 300gr FN and a 300gr semi-spitzer. I tried years ago to get him to introduce a cup-core 500gr weight 458" for plinking ... but the mantle of 'cheapest' bigbore pills has now shifted to The BulletFactory in Sydney. I think they're working on a heavier 45cal pill than what's shown below, but I've also requested a jacketed spire point in 325-350gr weight for a future short 458cal wildcat. I use lots of their 308cal 150gr projectiles ($23ish per 100) and have no complaints. Just regular cup and core projectiles suited to our light feral game and practice.


Weight is 405gr and I use them as 'plinkers' in my 458AccRel.
Cheers...
Con

Edited by Con (11/12/09 12:16 PM)

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: Con]
      #147643 - 11/12/09 02:13 PM

I guess I'd be looking at 400gn minimum, as required for the Big Game Rifle match for this class, and then cheap and reasonablly accurate - I'll probably never bench fire the 458 to see just how accurate they are.

What are we looking at in your photo? left to right:

???
???
500gn Woodleigh
405gn BulletFactory?
400gn PP Woodleigh?

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Con
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #147660 - 11/12/09 11:04 PM

Woodleigh monolithics ... 450gr and 400gr. Today I received the 325gr 45cal monos for the new project rifle. A 458WinMag equivalent from a short action.

I can't remember BGRC rules ... I think you can get away with a 400gr projectile though, but it's not exactly factory equivalent. Bertram makes a 480gr-500gr projectile in 458" that's cheaper than Woodleigh.
Cheers...
Con

Edited by Con (11/12/09 11:06 PM)

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kamilaroi
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: Con]
      #147703 - 12/12/09 10:58 AM

^ they're also doing 400gn softpoints for 404 Jeffs.

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Con
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Re: Brnos & CZ550s in 458WM [Re: kamilaroi]
      #147706 - 12/12/09 11:45 AM

Quote:

^ they're also doing 400gn softpoints for 404 Jeffs.



They havent made any 'soft' monolithics yet have they? The range that's been advertised by Woodleigh is in reality much more extensive. Not sure whether a cartridge 'looks right' though with these monos ... kind of look strange.
Cheers...
Con

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