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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52
      #145912 - 15/11/09 05:54 AM

I have a German prewar "Zi-Di" rifle which is chambered in 6.5x52. The action looks like a Greifelt design (bolt handle well forward) and the rifle has a detachable box magazine, also marked 6.5x52.

Does anyone know what 6.5x52 cartridge fits this gun? I have tried the 6.5x52 Italian Carcano and it does not fit. It's too long for the magazine and won't even begin to fall into the chamber when I try to put in a cartridge manually. After some further research, I discovered that it might be the 6.5 Arisaka cartridge (used by the Brits in some prewar sporting rifles), but that cartridge is designated 6.5x50. Apparently the British called it the .256 British or some such.

From what I have read, it appears most Zi-Di rifles were built in 5.6x35 (euro near equivalent of .22 hornet). I haven't been able find anything on the 6.5x52.

Have sent an email to Ziegenhaus (still in business in Germany) and am awaiting a response.

many thanks

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: mckinney]
      #145914 - 15/11/09 06:12 AM

mckinney:
This is a .25/35 Winchester cartridge in metric form. You are in luck with this.
Try the fit or make a wax cast and take a look.
This is per the W.B Dixon book European Sporting Cartridges.
Should be a fun rifle.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #145915 - 15/11/09 06:33 AM

Great - thank you! So I guess it's the 6.5x52R?

Will get some asap and try it.

Big relief as I thought it might be some hopelessly obscure round!

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: mckinney]
      #145952 - 15/11/09 06:33 PM

Best to make a simple cast with some parifin wax first. Plug the bore about an inch or two in the barrel above the chamber. Melt some parrafin wax and pour in intil it is even with the chamber. Allow to cool an hour or so and push it out with a patch or wad on a cleaning rod from the muzzle. You can use a micrometer and measure it out and compare to some of the publications or online reloading sites and confirm. 6.5x52R has been a popular caliber in Europe though it has roots with the winchester 1894. Great little deer cartridge.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #149225 - 01/01/10 08:58 AM

Hi 88

An update on the Zi-Di rifle. I have tried old Winchester .25-35 ammo and newer Sellier & Bellot 6.5x52R and neither will quite fit in the magazine or the extractor, although both seem to nicely fit the chamber. Of course I can't close the bolt on a cartridge since feeding from the magazine is impossible.

The dimensions are so close that it is tantalizing. The rim seems to be just a few thousandths too large in diameter or thickness to fit the extractor and just a bit too large in diameter for the magazine.

I don't think this is the wrong cartridge, but I wonder if the dimensions of the cartridge may have changed slightly since prewar times? I haven't been able to find anything on it. The company doesn't seem interested as they have ignored my emails.

I'd like to take the rifle in to a gunsmith if anyone can recommend a good one for these older German rifles.

many thanks

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LongIsland
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Reged: 09/02/09
Posts: 38
Loc: New York, U.S.A.
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: mckinney]
      #149239 - 01/01/10 04:04 PM

mac,

try german gun collectors assn. @

germanguns.com

they have a question and answer page where you can submit your question and could probally find a gunsmith familar with your rifle.
good luck.
Bob

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ellenbr
.300 member


Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: LongIsland]
      #149263 - 02/01/10 03:56 AM

McKinney:

The chamber tolerances are just tight and you'll probably have to reload for it. Brass and a set of dies will solve your problem. I wouldn't advise it, but there are some gunsmiths who with a few turns of a reamer could rectify the chamber issue but I'm not sure on the magazine version.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: ellenbr]
      #149276 - 02/01/10 05:34 AM

Thanks, but not sure handloading would cure anything, since the dimensions of the rim would still be the same. The rim on the cartridge is a few thousandths too large in diameter or thickness to fit the mag and the extractor, at least when I try to put a cartridge in the extractor by hand. If the rifle would feed from the magazine, maybe the camming power of the bolt would be enough to grab the cartridge. the cartridges seem to fit the chamber just fine.

I've sent an email to the german arms collectors group to see if they have any information. I also checked the numbers on the bolt, etc. - everything matches, so it isn't an issue with a wrong bolt, etc.

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: mckinney]
      #149280 - 02/01/10 07:00 AM

Steven Meyer might add some info but you might just need to take a little off the rim and then load. It's not that uncommon to modify the brass a bit. I shoot a good bit of 6.5X52R as well as 6.5X41R. Have you done a wax chamber cast? What year proof is yours? I think I have some info on Zi-Di somewhere.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
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Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: ellenbr]
      #149290 - 02/01/10 11:21 AM

I sent a note to Steven also, but haven't heard back yet.

I haven't done a chamber cast yet because the 6.5x52R cartridge fits nicely in the chamber and seems at least to be correct. I know it's not unusual to modify brass but have never heard of having to turn down the rim on a rimmed cartridge to make it work in a rifle chambered for the cartridge. And if the rim is too thick rather than too large in diameter, I don't know how you would fix that. Surely this thing must have been made to feed commercially available ammo. I can't imagine someone buying factory ammo back in the 1930s and having to play with it to make it work in the rifle.

The rifle has crown over BU proofs and the barrel date is '37. It has bases for claw mounts, but no rings. Double set triggers.

If you have any info on Zi-Di would love to have access to it.

many thanks for your input.

McKinney

PS - do you think a chamber cast would show differences in the rim diameter or thickness? I haven't worked with rimmed cartridges in bolt action rifles before, but really like the feel of this one and would love to shoot it.

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: mckinney]
      #149292 - 02/01/10 12:17 PM

McKinney:

You may have to neck the brass down and that keeps it from closing. A wax cast will show all but the thickness of the rim(I haven't used CerroSafe and it might???). If you email me, my contact should be in my profile, I'll mail you a couple pieces of resized brass. I think I shoot most of the 6.5x52R thru a Husky, but I'll check. If it is, it is one more whale of a squirrel gun.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: ellenbr]
      #149312 - 02/01/10 05:46 PM

The dimensions I show for the 6.5X52R in my DEVA manual indicate a rim diameter of 12.60mm and a rim thickness of 1.6mm. The same text gives the rim diameter for the .30-30 as 12.85mm, while specifying the same rim thickness. That translates to about .010" difference in rim diameter.

You might want to measure the rims of the cartridges you are using against these standards.

The other possibility is that the rifle is chambered for the .25 Remington, an obsolete cartridge which is the rimless version of the .25-35. Since the rifle is marked 6.5X52 without the "R", I would think this was a possibility. The .25 Remington has a rim diameter of .421, the same as that of the .30 Remington, a rimless version of the .30-30, but the shoulder is somewhat farther forward than that of the .25-35, so that a .25-35 cartridge would fit in a .25 Remington chamber, but not vice-versa.

How are you trying to insert the cartridges into the magazine? The only picture I could find of a Zi-Di rifle and magazine showed the magazine to be similar to that of a Model 43 Winchester .22 Hornet or .218 Bee. It appears that you would start with the cartridge rim half way toward the front of the magazine and push the follower down with the cartridge, while at the same time pushing the cartridge toward the rear of the magazine and under the magazine lips.

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: xausa]
      #149328 - 03/01/10 12:38 AM

xausa:

The note of a 0.25 Remington is a good point and it had slipped my mind. But I was mistaken on the little Husky squirrel gun and it is a 0.25-20 Winchester. Then the 6.5x41 is the 0.25-20(J. Francis Rabbeth)Single Shot and their dimensions aren't anywhere close. There isn't a "R" on the chamber, but a chamber cast revealed the mystery cartridge and that's why it should be the first step in eliminating many of the cartridge possibilities.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: xausa]
      #149337 - 03/01/10 03:16 AM

Xausa,

Thanks for the info on the .25 Remington. I think you may have the answer. I also wondered where there was no "R" in the caliber designation, but couldn't find anything on a 6.5x52 rimless cartridge. I didn't know it was the .25 Rem I wonder if the Europeans designated that cartridge 6.5x52?

If the rim diameter on the 25 Rem is .421 (10.7mm), that should be just about right against the 12.6mm of the .25-35. That difference looks to me like about the amount required.

By the way, when I tried to load the mag I was doing it as you described. The rim of the .25-35 is just too wide - you have to force it to even get it started into the magazine and there is no way it will fit all the way in. (the mag is a detachable box).

I looked at some diagrams of the .25 Rem and compared to the shape of the mag follower - it looks like a better fit than the .25-35. So - off now to find some 25 Rem ammo.

I will post a few shots of the rifle in the next couple of days, but it's not a looker.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1774
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: mckinney]
      #150932 - 17/01/10 09:53 AM

The .25 Remington was indeed known in Germany as the 6.5x52, DWM case number 519A, though not as popular as the 6.5x52R aka .25-35 Winchester, DWM#519. Recently I was given several 25 Remington cartridges found in a drawer in an old hunter's household, resting there since pre-WW2. I have seen a Mauser K action rifle by Otto Bock, Berlin so chambered and also two Haenel 1909s. In their 1909 catalog Haenel called it the "Winchester 25/35 rimless".

--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.

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mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: kuduae]
      #150956 - 17/01/10 06:36 PM

Kudu

thanks very much for this - I think it is pretty definitive proof the rifle is chambered for the .25 Remington. Now I just need to find some of the (expensive!) cartridges.

I really look forward to shooting it - should be very pleasant.

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ellenbr
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Reged: 25/08/07
Posts: 167
Loc: North Alabama
Re: question re: Zi-Di rifle in 6.5x52 [Re: mckinney]
      #151203 - 20/01/10 09:34 AM

mckinney:

Any joy on cartridges? Email or PM me as I may have a component source.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

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