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nitro450exp
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Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's
#145397 - 08/11/09 03:18 PM

Hello All

Looking for info on Lyon & Lyon DR's
Anybody got one ?
Impressions information?

Thanks

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
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500Nitro
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: nitro450exp]
#145398 - 08/11/09 03:21 PM

Generally made by whoever they ordered them from.
Have seen High, medium and low quality one's.

Have to judge each gun on it's merits.

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nitro450exp
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: 500Nitro]
#145511 - 10/11/09 03:03 AM

Hello,

So Barrel says Lyon & Lyon Calcutta.
From the poor picture, I can see it has a dolls head 3rd bite, Bolstered boxlock, Bushed strikers that dovetail in from the top.

Any guesses who made it for them.

Thanks

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: nitro450exp]
#145516 - 10/11/09 03:55 AM

Would help if you could post the photo or a link to it.

Under the Lyon & Lyon name, the bolstered frame on a boxlock would suggest Osborne, Birmingham, but it could also be from a number of others.

Does the action look like this?

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Lawn-&a...un_id=100104296

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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nitro450exp
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#145520 - 10/11/09 04:24 AM

Yes !
It looks exactly like that, the bolster are very unique shape.
Thanks for the info, Do you have any more ?
I will get to look at the proofmarks and gun this Wednesday, anything to look out for ?

Regards
Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

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20 Bore DR
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577 NE SR

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: nitro450exp]
#145524 - 10/11/09 05:14 AM

Thought so.

When you see it, examine it carefully for other markings, especially on the underside of the barrels, on or near the fore-end loop. Look for a five-digit number stamped. Also, take note of the serial number of the gun, presumably on the guard tang. The number on the tang will probably also be stamped on the underside of both barrels. However, there should be a third number, probably non-matching, on or near the loop. It's possible everything will match, as Lyon & Lyon was strictly a retailer, and may not have assigned their own serial numbers, in which case they WILL match.

Also proofmarks, should be Birmingham. Should be crown over BV, crown over BP, crown over NP, "Cordite xx - xxxMAX"; xxxEX, should all be present on the barrel flats. MAY also be 3.xx". I don't have to tell you that bore condition is paramount as to value. Photos will help. Please let us know what you find.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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crkennedy1
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#145526 - 10/11/09 05:45 AM

Out of curiosity, how long ago were the Lyon & Lyon DRs manufactured?

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DOUBLE or NOTHING

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: nitro450exp]
#145527 - 10/11/09 05:53 AM

Ring any bells?

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=54455&an=0&page=5#Post54455

Lancaster didn't build it.

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nitro450exp
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#145528 - 10/11/09 06:52 AM

.400NitroExpress

Now I am confused !, Did Lancaster build it ?
If it is not a Lancaster is it an Osborne ?

Please clarify.
It looks like the one in the picture, except it las a lever type forearm latch, no stalking safety.
The strikers are bushed from the top with a dovetail not disk type bushings.
May have been done later !

Thanks
Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: nitro450exp]
#145536 - 10/11/09 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nitro450exp:

.400NitroExpress

Now I am confused !, Did Lancaster build it ?
If it is not a Lancaster is it an Osborne ?

Please clarify.
It looks like the one in the picture, except it las a lever type forearm latch, no stalking safety.
The strikers are bushed from the top with a dovetail not disk type bushings.
May have been done later !

Simple explanation. By advent of the nitro era (1890s), the London trade was no longer attempting to build boxlock DRs, because they couldn't make a profit on them building them in house. Almost without exception, these were "bought in" from the trade - Birmingham - where there were a number of express rifle specialists to "the trade". For example, Webley is famous for the high quality double rifles they made back in the day. Well over 90% of Webley's output bears somebody else's name. It's COMMON to see a specific Webley model, like the PHV-1 for example, with Holland & Holland's name on it, and then see the identical rifle bearing an obscure retailers name that nobody's ever heard of, like London Sporting Park, both with Webley serial numbers on the left side of the loop.

Same with Osborne. Osborne was a major "trade maker", the Lancaster in the link above for example. Lyon & Lyon, Calcutta wasn't a gunmaker, they were just one of many retailers scattered around the empire. The guns bearing their name were all made by someone else. Double rifles like this one, "made for the trade", were still hand made, and what was delivered was what was ordered. Caliber, type of fore-end latch, bolted safety, sights, stock dimensions, etc...were specified by order. Few were delivered exactly the same.

The actual maker is sometimes readily identifiable, but sometimes not. That's where the markings come in. The 3 digit number on the trigger guard tang is the retailer's - Lyon & Lyon. As a rule of thumb, the Birmingham trade makers DID mark guns built for the trade with their own serial numbers - there are exceptions, such as Wilkes, another prolific trade maker. The normal practice was to place this number on, or in the immediate vicinity of, the fore-end loop (the stud soldered to the bottom of the barrels that the fore-end attaches to). That appears to be the number you referred to as being in the 40,000 range. That's the number I need.

Given the "40,000 range", there's one more mark that I hope is there. There may be a mark that appears as a pair of crossed swords with a letter in the 12 o'clock angle and a number in the 6 o'clock angle on ONE of the barrel flats. If it's there, what is the letter at 12 o'clock? Take a magnifying glass with you.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: nitro450exp]
#145537 - 10/11/09 08:31 AM

For illustration purposes, here's a Lancaster .280 Flanged from 1912:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=61739&an=0&page=4#Post61739

This is Webley's PHV-1 Model, Webley serial number 13049. This rifle is a rare example of a Webley DR built for "the trade" that MAY have been finished by the retailer, and the action bar is filed up in a way that is not typical of this model, nor is the engraving pattern. By the same token, these are full custom guns and the finish style could easily have been ordered that way from Webley's.

Here's the Lancaster .400 again from the same time period:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=54455&an=0&page=5#Post54455

Can't find my notes for the numbers. Totally different rifle, because it's from Osborne instead of Webley.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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nitro450exp
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#145544 - 10/11/09 08:51 AM

.400NitroExpress.

Since the gun I will be looking at, has the exact same distict side bolsters, I will assume it was made for Lyon & Lyon by the Trades ( Specifcally Osborne ).
I will be looking for either "Nitro Proved" if proved before 1904 or Crown over NP ( Birmingham post 1904 )
I would not expect to see sword over NP ( London post 1904 ).
I will look for the crossed swords with numbers, what does this signify ?
I will also take pictures of the other marks ie "450EX" "480grs" "70grs Cordite MAX"
Crown / BV (Viewing mark) Crown / BNP ( Nitro Proof )
Serial # 438XX Lyon # 9XX.

I will also be inspecting the bores for pitting, frosting and general wear.
I will be bringing some dummy 450NE ammo to check the chambers.

Hopefully it checks out, and the price is right.

Regards
Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: nitro450exp]
#145556 - 10/11/09 10:58 AM

Quote:

.400NitroExpress.

I will be looking for either "Nitro Proved" if proved before 1904 or Crown over NP ( Birmingham post 1904 )

No. "Nitro Proved" was used only on small bores up to .315". There will be no Nitro Proof mark at all if it dates prior to 1904.

Quote:

I would not expect to see sword over NP ( London post 1904 ).

Correct, that's the London Nitro Proof mark. I'm expecting Birmingham proof, BUT, it could turn out to be London, which is meaningless. By the time this gun was built, DR trade makers in Birmingham did use London for proof on regular basis. Webley virtually always did. In my observation, these were usually proved in Brum though.

Quote:

I will look for the crossed swords with numbers, what does this signify ?

Birmingham's date code. Brum used one fifty years before London did. If it turns out to be proved in London, it won't have one.

Quote:

I will also take pictures of the other marks ie "450EX" "480grs" "70grs Cordite MAX"
Crown / BV (Viewing mark) Crown / BNP ( Nitro Proof )
Serial # 438XX Lyon # 9XX.

For Birmingham: "450EX"; "Cordite 70 - 480MAX"; Crown over "BP"; Crown over "BV"; Crown over "NP". Maybe chamber length - "3.25""; maybe the date code.

For London: Exactly like this (scroll 1/3 down):

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=54700&an=0&page=5#Post54700

Quote:

I will also be inspecting the bores for pitting, frosting and general wear.
I will be bringing some dummy 450NE ammo to check the chambers.

On/off face; oil soaked, cracked, chipped wood; originality and dimensions of wood; improperly refinished metal; over stressed rifling; obvious repairs (obvious = poorly done); bore and chamber dimensions (slug bores, cast chambers), etc.

With a double rifle like this, I strongly recommend making any offer contingent on professional inspection by a true gunmaker (a double rifle specialist) AND establishing the shooting qualities of the gun (you gotta shoot it). I never skip the gunmaker's inspection step.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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nitro450exp
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#145738 - 13/11/09 12:19 AM

All, (and 400NitroExpress)

Well got a look at it last night.
It does not have any Nitro proofs except the "70 grs Cordite - 480 grs Max" on the flats
Crown V on the flats and water table, Crown CP on the flats and 450EX.
Barrel has " 450 Express 3 1/4", 70 grs cordite - 480 max " inscribed on it.
Condition is relative to price, so I will have to wait and see what I can get it for.
I think it will make a fine shooter.

The biggest issue with it, is that the striker bushings got screwed up at some point.
The repair was to take out thr disk bushings and mill a dovetail from the top of the action.
Now the strikers are held in place, by plates that slide down the dovetail, from the top, and have a screw that is counterbored above the striker holding the plates in place.
I have seen this system of bushing before, but this was clearly a repair.
Any thoughts on this repair ?

Left barrel has a slight ring in the rifeling, 1/4" after chamber, seems unusual that the left would be shot more than the right, and have errosion, any thoughts ?

Any recommendations for a smith to redo the bushings, JJ or someone else ?

Thanks
Sorry did not get any pictures, last night.
If the price is right will follow up with lots of pictures.

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: nitro450exp]
#145749 - 13/11/09 03:11 AM

Quote:

All, (and 400NitroExpress)
It does not have any Nitro proofs except the "70 grs Cordite - 480 grs Max" on the flats
Crown V on the flats and water table, Crown CP on the flats and 450EX.

Both indicate London proof before 1904. London's marking of the load proved for reversed the wording from Birmingham's prior to 1904. It isn't CP. It's crown over the letters "GP" (gunmaker's proof) interlaced in a cypher. This is London's definitive proof mark.

Quote:

The biggest issue with it, is that the striker bushings got screwed up at some point.
The repair was to take out thr disk bushings and mill a dovetail from the top of the action.
Now the strikers are held in place, by plates that slide down the dovetail, from the top, and have a screw that is counterbored above the striker holding the plates in place.
I have seen this system of bushing before, but this was clearly a repair.
Any thoughts on this repair ?

I think it unlikely that this is a repair.

Quote:

Left barrel has a slight ring in the rifeling, 1/4" after chamber, seems unusual that the left would be shot more than the right, and have errosion, any thoughts ?

Is it a ring or erosion? With respect to "redoing" the strikers, I think this one needs to go to J. J. for a careful examination before you buy it.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500Nitro
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#145750 - 13/11/09 03:27 AM

nitro450

Re the bushing "repair", I have seen this done as a repair
on a gun, BUT I think someone in more modern times had copied how some guns were made as I have seen Original guns made like this where it was clearly original (the guns history
was known and in too good a condition for it to have been
a repair).

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nitro450exp
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: 500Nitro]
#145755 - 13/11/09 04:21 AM

.400 and .500

The bushings are a repair, the plates are blued and the action is case cloured.
The engraving on top or the fences does not continue onto the plates.
I have now seen 3 other trade actions, that have the same distinct side bolsters.
(a Lanacster, an Osborne and a Lawn & Adler )
All of those guns did not have the plate style bushings.
I have seen original guns with this style bushing, so the repair was done by someone knowledgable.
I would love to be able to send it to JJ or someone for inspection, just not possible.
It's a sh*t or Git type situation, and if the price is right, we can fix almost anything.

Wish me luck !

The flats definitely had a V, CP, 450EX marks, right where the barrels go into the lumps,
there was another mark (very difficult to read)but on the barrel.
I think this was the GP Proof in script.
Does this follow your experience ?

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=61739&an=0&page=4#Post61739

On this thread you can see the marks on the barrel, same as the Lyon & Lyon except no NP.

Thanks

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: nitro450exp]
#145758 - 13/11/09 05:50 AM

Quote:

The bushings are a repair, the plates are blued and the action is case cloured.

That's normal and is not indicative of a repair. The dovetailed flanges of this type of striker bushing were usually blued rather than case-hardened with the action, for the same reason that discs are done the same way.

Quote:

The engraving on top or the fences does not continue onto the plates.

Same.

Quote:

I have now seen 3 other trade actions, that have the same distinct side bolsters.
(a Lanacster, an Osborne and a Lawn & Adler )
All of those guns did not have the plate style bushings.

Those are all Osbornes. Yes, they can differ. You're looking at a very early .450 Nitro (pre-1904), and the design details of most of these various trade makers' rifles were still changing then. For instance Webley had used shoe-lump barrels, but changed to chopper-lump in 1904/05.

Quote:

I would love to be able to send it to JJ or someone for inspection, just not possible.
It's a sh*t or Git type situation, and if the price is right, we can fix almost anything.

From long experience, unless the price is very, very low, that's an automatic pass, and I don't burn the gas to even go look. The irregularity in the left throat is a potentially serious problem. With no way to check it out in a shit or git situation, that alone is an automatic "git".

Quote:

The flats definitely had a V, CP, 450EX marks, right where the barrels go into the lumps,
there was another mark (very difficult to read)but on the barrel.
I think this was the GP Proof in script.
Does this follow your experience ?

The marks you describe are normal original London proof of a .450 Nitro under the 1887 rules. The mark that you're referring to is a lion rampant of the letters GP interlaced in a cypher. It's London's provisional proof mark that's stamped when the blanks are proved prior to building the gun, and have nothing to do with definitive (final) proof.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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nitro450exp
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#145761 - 13/11/09 07:04 AM

.400

So the 64,000 $ question.
What is cheap enough to sh*t for this gun.
I have a $ amount I will PM you, let me know if you think I am crazy !
PM me your email, and I will send you some pictures.
I think once you have seen them you can decide if the bushing are correct.

Thanks for the knowledge and advice
n450e

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: nitro450exp]
#145763 - 13/11/09 07:18 AM

You have a PM.

Spoke to J. J. about the bushings. He agrees that they're normally blue.

Look, the usual reaction to this type of striker access is almost always exactly as yours. Westley used the same a lot early on. J. J. mentioned how often people say "look at this lovely Westley that somebody screwed up", even though it's entirely original. Keep in mind that the original dovetails could have been poorly replaced due to gas erosion on the face, a problem that was common with early Cordite ammo, especially Eley Brothers.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500Nitro
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#145764 - 13/11/09 07:23 AM

I just realized one of my guns has them.

Problem is I don't have any pics of it and the gun isn't here.

Damn.

Edited by 500Nitro (13/11/09 07:31 AM)

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AkMike
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#145765 - 13/11/09 07:26 AM

Would you post pictures of these bushings? I've never seen this set up before.
Thanks

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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nitro450exp
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: AkMike]
#145766 - 13/11/09 08:27 AM

400NitroExpress

You have a PM.
I have seen this bushing type a few times, but the execution was better,
The dovetail fit was better and they were scallopped to match the fences.
That is what leads me to think they are replacements or a repair.
The colours are American not London maybe the smith who refinished the colours,
over polished the bushing to blue then, they are high gloss, and rounded off all the edges, hence poor appearance, and amateur look.
If I get the gun, I will have fresh ones made, and consider getting them engraved to blend in, I prefer that look, it cannot detract from the current condition, I will keep these and they can be replaced at will.
Should the strikers have springs to keep them back in the pockets ?

Thanks
Graeme

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR

Edited by nitro450exp (13/11/09 09:02 AM)

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: nitro450exp]
#145772 - 13/11/09 09:16 AM

Quote:

Should the strikers have springs to keep them back in the pockets ?

No. These usually just float.

From the photos, proof marks, and number, this is a quite early .450 NE from Osborne, almost certainly pre-1900.

This is Osborne SN 51112:

http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...&GunID=1679

This Lawn & Alder is Osborne SN 50208, and has post 1904 London proof:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Lawn-&-Alder-Boxlock-Double-Rifle-450400.cfm?gun_id=100072794

In my research records I see an Army & Navy .500 NE ordered from Osborne, Osborne SN 51289, sold 12/17/06.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mickey
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Re: Lyon & Lyon of Calcutta DR's [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#145779 - 13/11/09 11:45 AM

Here is an Alex Henry in 450/400 3 1/4 with the same action.

This one has bushed firing pins

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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