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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Westley375]
      #144647 - 29/10/09 12:16 AM

Buffalo of any sort aren't dangerous until they kill you ...

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Ripp
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: Westley375]
      #144651 - 29/10/09 12:47 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

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Westley375
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: Ripp]
      #144658 - 29/10/09 02:10 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

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Ripp
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: Westley375]
      #144659 - 29/10/09 02:16 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

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Westley375
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t *DELETED* [Re: Ripp]
      #144663 - 29/10/09 02:31 AM

Post deleted by NitroX

Edited by Westley375 (29/10/09 02:32 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Westley375]
      #144665 - 29/10/09 02:40 AM

Quote:

But I can't for the life of me see why anyone would shoot a Buff with anything other than classic Double rifle.




A scoped rifle assists shooting a cape buff within a herd.

One reason for you.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Westley375]
      #144666 - 29/10/09 02:40 AM

But Westley, you did what you quote above in your first post !! You remind me of the old "year end employee evaluation report" I read from a bank supervisor..."This man is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot"....."a man starts on the road to wisdom when he realises he knows nothing"...Socrates....be a little humble, it never hurt anyone, best, Mike

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Westley375
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #144667 - 29/10/09 02:56 AM

Humble it is sir , advice well taken. My apologies to most of those I have offended. People CAN have different opinions without being Crucified....or did somebody try that 2000 yrs ago?

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Westley375
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: NitroX]
      #144668 - 29/10/09 03:03 AM

John (NitroX)- Thanks for letting the air out of this one....At least your deletions are unbias and fair. And yes your reason for a scope in a herd is a good one. The kind of repsonse I was initially looking for. Regards To All

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Westley375]
      #144670 - 29/10/09 03:11 AM

An issue I find interesting is long range shooting of buffalo.

Not saying people should or should not do it.

But in my personal opinion in takes the "fun" out of hunting dangerous game, as the trophy on the wall is not my main objective. Its more fun I think to get closer.

And with dangerous game making the shot count is also more important that say with plains game which is unlikely to stomp on some other person.

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John aka NitroX

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crkennedy1
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: NitroX]
      #144675 - 29/10/09 04:16 AM

I just finished reading all of the comments from the beginning (including the ones that were deleted). I must say that this has been a heated conversation. I do enjoy up-close and person in my hunting and thus a do quite a bit of bow hunting. On the other hand, I also have much respect for those that can cleanly harvest their game at a distance. I think that the key for all in the hunting relm is tolerance for one another and solidarity amongst the ranks. Westley375, if you get a minute, go back and look at my post from my own hunt to Africa about three weeks ago (also found under 'Hunting in Africa and hunting dangerous game') Even though all of the pictures that you look are are plains game, every animal was taken at 200 or more yards. Why? Because that was all the closer I could get! I'm not ashamed to tell you that I shot six trophies, and I shot exactly six bullets - all clean, one shot kills. I don't tell you this to brag but to merey comment that I am happy for you and your African adventure - can't you do the same for others?

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: crkennedy1]
      #144678 - 29/10/09 04:37 AM

Westley, perhaps I was a bit harsh, the problem with internet forums is that we type things we would always "talk about amongst us over a table and a beer" in a different manner, best, Mike

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ozhunter
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #144711 - 29/10/09 05:13 PM

During the first few days of my last Safari in northern Mozambique I was lucky enough to have an opportunity to get within thirty meters of small groups of Cape buffalo bulls every day. this in its self was a mission as it was late June and the Jesse bush had just dropped the bulk of their leaves, thus creating a 6" bed of crunchy leaf litter in the places most likely to find the owners of the Spoor we where following.
Although we had great time this close to groups of undisturbed bulls, we where unlucky that they where always younger bulls and certainly not what I was after.
On the evening of about the seventh day we where driving along an open plain where Stuart the PH stopped as he thought he could see Buffalo. Being just short of last light we hastily kitted up, checked the wind and cover for the approach and moved as fast as possible over around one kilometre of elephant rutted ground. During the approach we had to manuver between a couple herds of Impala and Waterbuck. We were trying to get into a position that would have the herd pass us on their way down to the Lugenda for water.
Unfortunately with the help of one noisy Impala, a cow buff detected our movement within the clump of thornbush we where using as cover but wasn't to sure what we where . As they milled around feeding and looking for danger (Their life's work) we Glassed them over and hoped they would still move before the fast coming darkness. When all eyes where not looking in our direction we would close the distance by a few meters with the help of smaller and smaller bushes.
The herd consisted of around one hundred animals and although we didn't really expect a mature trophy bull to be there, all of a sudden an old gray sod stepped out from amongst the crowd and tried to mount a nervous cow. Well this bull was old, fourteen years old in fact. This guy must have be suffering Alzheimer's and obviously didn't no this was the job for younger guys.
Any way, with a soft ready, Illuminated scope on and sticks in place, I touched of a shot that would have been around the one hundred meter mark. We heard the hard thump of a solid hit followed by him stumbling. As the herd took off, we took off in pursuit also, when they stopped, we stopped also. Another shot and we did the same procedure but after this we where forced to stop as a cow looked as though she wanted retribution for being disturbed.
With the help of the two 300grn Swifts in the chest, the old grey guy was easily seen not looking so healthy. one more bullet through the lungs, this time a 286grn Woodleigh solid and we moved in as the herd moved out. As we moved in the Bull was still standing up, holding on. Another solid in the High shoulder dropped him and one more between the shoulder blades finished this enjoyable hunt.


My next Bull was taken a few weeks later when most of the fallen leaves had broken down and weren't as noisy but the August winds became more unpredictable.
This lone daggerboy was tracked up at one o'clock in the afternoon feeding in the long grass and Bamboo. We bumped into him at around thirty yards as he fed along, a solid from the 9.3 sent him running and after a couple minutes we moved along the Vegetation choked gully he moments before ran into. A little way in and he was spotted looking our direction, a 9.3 solid was sent in poll axing him. I climbed a tree to see his shape in the grass and after a couple more minutes we slowly moved in.

Between these two different hunts, I couldn't tell you which I enjoyed most. Yes I could have used open sights for the second Buffalo, but It has been my experience that with these Wiley Moz Buff often found amongst the Miombo, Jesse and Bamboo that shots can be very difficult. As a great example of tricky shots check out www.kambakosafaris.com promo video.
Also, for those that think that Buffalo are similar to domestic cows are sadly full of s%$t. This animal is almost always being harassed by lion and they don't live long if they aren't switched on and are one of the most "switched on" animals that I have had the pleasure of hunting.


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eagle27
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #144712 - 29/10/09 05:19 PM

Thanks Nitrox
I think you have done us all a valuable service and brought us back down to earth again now our hackles have been lowered.
We all obviously share a common interest and some are more fortunate than others in having been amongst the big boys but of course that doesn't lessen the opinion and thoughts of those that haven't. While I have been lucky and probably stupid in my earlier years of hunting I envy those today like Westley who have got to Africa. Hopefully I will do that too some day soon.

Funny when I think back now and am ashamed to admit I can't even remember what ammo I used on the buffs I did shoot. I was young and not so into tallying up all the details back then. All I know is I know is that I used some Parker Hale factory 400gr FMJ some original Kynoch 400gr SP and some of my own reloads with the RWS 400gr FMJ. Only recall recovering one RWS solid from the rear hip ball joint of a big buff after it travelled full length from a high chest shot and lodged right in that large strong joint. All I know is that everything fell over when hit. Stupid me I could have got more out of it had I been more of an enquiring mind back then. Next time I will be more astute.

I too admit that if possible it is always more exciting taking a shot at any animal by getting in close and facing it. As a lefty using RH bolt rifles I am then in reality using a single shot so face an even greater challenge of making the first one count. I do sometimes wonder what the challenge is when viewing some of the videos online of hunters taking an elephant side on with a scoped rifle over sticks when they could have stalked a lot closer and taken the standing shot. So I do concur with Westley on this but only from my own feelings of not the shot for me. How others go about their hunting is their choice and I only wish them good hunting.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: eagle27]
      #144715 - 29/10/09 06:30 PM

I have only shot one cape buffalo and it was before I owned a suitable double rifle. I used my Whitworth Mauser 98 scoped .375. Range was around 60 metres and it was standing in an open vlei from the donga/creek bed we had used to get closer.

The next time I hunted cape buffalo was during a cow elephant hunt but cape buffalo were a secondary objective. We came across a herd near the Matsuadona Park boundary (Omay) and shadowed the herd and looked it over six times. Sometimes within 50 yards distance of us hidden in the jesse. I swapped my Jeffery DR in .450 No. 2 for the guides scoped .416 as it was going to be difficult to get a clear shot at a bull in the milling herd. In the end the PH informed me even though some of the bulls have long horns none fitted my requirement of fully mature hard bosses so we left go in piece. While I had the bolt .416 the PH had my .450 and was watching five elephant bulls bums which constantly were sometimes within 20 yards of us the whole time, also inadvertently shadowing the buff herds direction as well.

Use the appropriate tool for the job given the circumstances at the time.

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Ripp
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: ozhunter]
      #144732 - 30/10/09 12:55 AM

Quote:


Also, for those that think that Buffalo are similar to domestic cows are sadly full of s%$t. This animal is almost always being harassed by lion and they don't live long if they aren't switched on and are one of the most "switched on" animals that I have had the pleasure of hunting.





Agree 100% with everything you said--anyone making a statement like that has apparently not hunted them where I have..or anyone else I know...

Ripp

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ChinaFleetSailor
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Ripp]
      #144974 - 02/11/09 09:43 AM

After seeing all the deleted posts, I don't want to add more heat than light to the issue.

But as to why I would want to hunt buffalo with anything other than a iron sighted double rifle, I'd like to point out one benefit of hunting with a bolt action rifle for most people.

It's what they're used to. I know it's what I'm most familiar with when it comes to hunting and shooting.

PHs such as Buzz Charlton and Myles McCallum, with whom I hunted elephant earlier in the year, say that the vast majority of hunters using a double aren't very good with them. Under pressure, pulling the first trigger twice is a problem for the majority.

So much for the advantage of two fast aimed shots.

I'm willing to concede a double rifle is theoretically faster for the second shot than a bolt rifle. But as a practical matter, if you've built up a lifetime of muscle memory hunting with bolt action rifles, you're more likely to get the second shot off faster if you're using the rifle you've shot most.

The fact of the matter is, most hunters do most of their hunting with bolt action rifles. Or if not bolt action rifles, something other then double rifles. This is generally a matter of cost. How many of us could afford a battery of light, medium, and heavy double rifles? But it seems to me that for most of the hunting I do in North America the bolt rifle is more appropriate. How many really accurate 7mm doubles are there, capable of a long shot on a pronghorn? Or light enough to haul into the mountains?

So I practice with my bolt action rifles a lot. So why would I want to switch to a double for dangerous game, and not use a rifle I can operate without thinking about it?

I'm not immune to the attraction of a double rifle. But the best advice I've gotten about learning a double is to get a shotgun that's configured exactly the same and shoot it a lot. That's the way to unlearn old habits and develop new ones.

I'm not much of a shotgunner, thought. Besides, I'm in my late forties. Right now my eyes are fine. My .375 and .416 wear iron sights. (I have scopes for them, but I usually don't have them mounted on the rifles. The cheek weld is different, so I do the opposite of most and only mount the scope if I need it for a longer shot. I figure any shot I need with the irons I'm going to need fast, so that's how I practice.) But I'm at the age where they can go fast. It seems to me that by the time I develop new muscle memory, I may need that scope. As a matter of fact, I read a sad story recently in African Hunter magazine of a man about my age who had to sell his double for that reason. He couldn't stand the thought of scoping his beautiful double. So he sold it on the installment plan to an up and coming PH. Now he does all his DG hunting with his scoped bolt rifles.

I'm willing to concede all the advantages double rifle enthusiasts claim for their rifles. But only on a theoretical basis. Not if the guy behind the rifle has just recently switched from the type of rifle he's shot his whole life because he wanted a double rifle for dangerous game. It's entirely likely that he's put himself at a disadvantage instead.

Invest in ammo, not rifles. Get good with something, then stick with it.

That's just my opinion.


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gryphon
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: ChinaFleetSailor]
      #144980 - 02/11/09 11:42 AM

And a good opinion at that!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: ChinaFleetSailor]
      #144987 - 02/11/09 01:06 PM

Quote:

After seeing all the deleted posts, I don't want to add more heat than light to the issue.




Nothing adding to the debate was edited.

Quote:

I'm willing to concede all the advantages double rifle enthusiasts claim for their rifles. But only on a theoretical basis. Not if the guy behind the rifle has just recently switched from the type of rifle he's shot his whole life because he wanted a double rifle for dangerous game. It's entirely likely that he's put himself at a disadvantage instead.

Invest in ammo, not rifles. Get good with something, then stick with it.




Very true. Investing in a double, shooting it a few shots, using it on a buff hunt, then selling it immediately afterwards, ... this does happen ... your opinion would be quite apt in these circumstances especially.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Ripp
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: NitroX]
      #145005 - 02/11/09 03:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Very true. Investing in a double, shooting it a few shots, using it on a buff hunt, then selling it immediately afterwards, ... this does happen ... your opinion would be quite apt in these circumstances especially.




Heck--you see enough guys go on hunts that do the same with bolts --let alone doubles...some show up with the guns bore-sighted at the shop they bought them...hard to imagine--but true story...

Ripp

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tophet1
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: Ripp]
      #145008 - 02/11/09 06:38 PM

Well to me it's an industry that supplies a product to paying consumers (us). The product and experience will differ in relation to the amount invested.

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ajsaxin
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: tophet1]
      #146336 - 21/11/09 12:28 PM

I must say though I do not have any experince hunting cape bufflaos but I would agree with-Westley375 .What is the point of using a scope staying half a mile away and shooting it,u might as well have a UAV blowing he animal up from above.If you do not have the skill to shoot the animal with out a scope then dont hunt.If you are hunting for a living(bell) or for food I would understand ppl using a scope,as you would want to be 100% sure.But stuff like I do not want to inflict much pain ont the animal and similar stories really hold no water.Unless you are among the dozens who visit africa only because you want to fill your walls up with heads and a story(half filled with crap )to tell your buddies.Maybe a leopard makes sense with a scope as getting really close to them is almost impossible.
When you hunt give your trophy animal an equal chance to know you there and escape or come for you.Dont hide behind your PHs shoulders from 200 yards waiting to fire off.But I must admit it does require a lota balls going upclose to a bufflo when you know you are a uselss shot with out a scope and its equally stupid .But the bottom line is , you hunt if you have the skills to give a good fight to the animal if not the bull does not deserve to die at your hands.I seen pics all over the internet of hunters who fit the typical wall street banker types with such beautiful trophies at which they would have had no chance if it wasnt for the money,the scope and the best PH. I am not trying to be rude or flame any one on their opinion just my idea on what a hunt should be.If this does not comply with you then good for you.

Good day


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mikeh416Rigby
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: ajsaxin]
      #146366 - 22/11/09 12:54 PM

ajsaxin - I must take offense to the following part of your post: "What is the point of using a scope staying half a mile away and shooting it,u might as well have a UAV blowing he animal up from above.If you do not have the skill to shoot the animal with out a scope then dont hunt."

I use a scope, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I've yet to run into anyone out in the bush shooting at animals "half a mile away".

I believe, we as hunters and stewards of wildlife, have a moral and ethical obligation to take an animal's life as cleanly, quickly, and humanely as possible. Anyone who says they can place a shot as accurately from 100 meters away with iron sights as they can with a scoped firearm is probably in politics, and doesn't know what the truth is. Also, my 60+ year old eyes no longer can adjust to using iron sights, so I guess you believe that we seniors shouldn't be hunting any longer. Last year I shot a wonderful old Cape Buffalo from +- 160 yards after a 4 hour stalk on hands and knees, and belly crawling, because there was absolutely no more cover to use in the Chobe River flood plain where we were hunting in Namibia's Caprivi Strip. One shot from my scoped 416 Rigby killed the buffalo immediately. He didn't take 5 steps.


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gryphon
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #146368 - 22/11/09 01:38 PM

Quote:

mile away".

Last year I shot a wonderful old Cape Buffalo from +- 160 yards after a 4 hour stalk on hands and knees, and belly crawling, because there was absolutely no more cover to use in the Chobe River flood plain where we were hunting in Namibia's Caprivi Strip. One shot from my scoped 416 Rigby killed the buffalo immediately. He didn't take 5 steps.




I like that above and well said and there is none of the almost obligatory add on that "it was charging and fell at my feet"

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ajsaxin
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Re: Cape Buffalo Bulls#*t [Re: mikeh416Rigby]
      #146381 - 22/11/09 06:50 PM

Quote:

ajsaxin - I must take offense to the following part of your post: "What is the point of using a scope staying half a mile away and shooting it,u might as well have a UAV blowing he animal up from above.If you do not have the skill to shoot the animal with out a scope then dont hunt."

There are exceptions Sir ,I guess I should have specified instead of generalising.Yes due to age you might require the aid of a scope how ever would you say every one who hunt with a scope are doing so only because of age or poor eye sight?

The fact remains hunting is a sport despite what ever spiritual tone we give it so lets give our opponent an equal chance to get the better of us.And come on how many of these trophy bulls die of old age,thye are either killed my some predator when they are left out of the herd or end up being beaten and bruised by some younger bull and then again killed by a pack of hyenas,do you really think a bullet would be more pain full than that?If it is tough to stalk and you are not able to tak a proepr shot then stalk it till you can,if it looks like the bull is gettig the better of you and just might escape well he was smart enough for that and this time he got the better of you.
My gripe is not against those who hunt with a scope for medical or age reasons but those who use it because thye shoot better with it.

How do you think the buffalos were hunted befoe scoped rifles were available?

Again if i did miss out any genuine exceptions I apologise,end of the day no one has to justify it to any one but your self.

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