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Your cagey answer removes all need to assume.

As I said, you have never shot a single head of game with the .45-70 stiff-loaded with the Lee 402HP.

Try it, and you'll post a recantation of your snide remarks.

I believe you are honest enough to at least do that.

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You are correct in one thing I've never shot anything with a LEE 402HP! I have, however, been shooting game up to and including Coastal Brown bear with hyper loaded 45-70s for years in a very strong Ruger No1. That makes little difference, however! Your assumption is that I have no experience shooting large animals with both the 45-70, and the 375 H&H, and that the 45-70 loaded with your magic bullet makes the 45-70 equal to the 375H&H. The 45-70 is illegal for all the big five over the leopard in every country where they are hunted. The 375H&H however is legal for all of the big five in every country where the big five are hunted. The reason for that is the 45-70 doesn't come up to the energy levels to be legal.

What you 45-70 crackpots don't seem to understand is simply because the barrel that carries the bullet from a 45-70 is .458 dia doesn't make it a big bore cartridge. The 45-70 is a good short range cartridge for woods hunting in North America, but when you get down to stopping power it is little better than a prayer. The 375 H&H with a 300 gr controlled expansion bullet does more tissue damage on large animals than any HOLLOW POINT bullet fired from a 45-70 at any range you want to name. The hollow point bullets are not a proper bullet for large dangerous game. What is needed is deep straight-line penetration, from any angle on tough animals like Cape buffalo.

I think you are probably the one who has no experience shooting dangerous game with either of the cartridges you claim to know so much about. I assure you testing bullets in jell, or wet paper is not what is needed to make such judgments. Let me know when you have taken a few Cape buffalo, and hippo with your illegal 45-70, and then we might be on the same level to discuss this. Till then, keep on shooting wet phone books, and an occasional mule deer, and making assumptions based on that data!

Today I own three rifles chambered for 45-70, and three chambered for 375H&H, and 75 other long rifles up to and including 577NE, and have taken "large" game with all of them above 25 cal, and dangerous game with all of them above 30 caliber. Somehow I get the idea you are under the misguided assumption that I'm a little 20 yr old punk, when I probably have kids older than you, the youngest being 45 yrs old, and the oldest being 53 yrs old. I was born in the 1930s, and started hunting on my own in 1940, and killed my first head of dangerous game at 13 yrs of age. So friend you peddle your vast experience someplace else, and when you fail to stop a pissed off cape buffalo (an animal that habitually takes an average of six shots from a 470NE before going down), with your little cowboy pop-gun your last thoughts are going to be "Damn, I wish I had USED ENOUGH GUN!"

..........................Bye now, hope to see you in the Upper Lupande of Zambia some day, but I doubt I will, you will, most likely, still be shooting wet paper!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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As for me, if the question is whether to buy a Baikal in .45/70 or .30-06 the answer is easy. They are so cheap, buy both.

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That's not so easy

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There's one thing certainly true about the .45/70. It elicits strong opinions on both sides.

As for me, if the question is whether to buy a Baikal in .45/70 or .30-06 the answer is easy. They are so cheap, buy both. Then after playing with them, either keep both or sell the one you don't like as much. There's no way to lose like that.

You will probably end up keeping both, as each caliber is great in its own right. They don't really overlap.

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I really don't think anybody here is asserting that the .45/70 is a dangerous game rifle cartridge, which it plainly is not. Daryl says it plays hell on moose. That's something he unquestionably knows about. I'll accept that. I'm sure as heck not going to hunt something that bites or stomps using a .45/70, and I don't think Daryl is advocating that.

I've owned several .45/70's but never hunted with them. The Pedersoli I had would make a fine hunting rifle used within its limitations. Daryl says great for North American game. I agree.

Curl

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I think when you state that the 45-70 is equal to the 375 H&H you have just said the 45-70 is a dangerous game cartridge! To back that statement up someone quoted Frank C. Barnes C.O.T.W. as proof of the value of loading the 45-70's use on dangerous game, stateing further that frank didn't offer the same advice for the 375 H&H! Well is that any suprise? No such thing needs to be said about the 375H&H, because it is a dangerous game cartridge, and needs no heavier loading data to make it so.

Anyone who has a modicum of knowledge of firearms loading knows the you never take any load advice from "Cartridges Of The World" , especially for use in a double rifle, without a very heavy grain of salt. There are more mistakes in all the editions of C.O.T.W than any book ever written on the subject.

I have no problem with this little rifle in either chambering being used for general HUNTING, but a stopping rifle it certainly IS NOT in either chambering. The Pedersoli, OTH, will take far heavier loads than the Biakal,and can be used for what Daryl is thinking of as a use to STOP wounded large North American animals, but I wouldn't include the Coastal brown bear in this use even with the Pedersoli chambered for the 45-70. Though the Pedersoli can handle higher pressure loads, it will not stand loads as heavy as the Marlin Guide gun can. I have one of these doubles re-chambered for the 458RCBS, and it will just come in under the minimum for the Brown bears. A friend of mine (PWN375)who posts here on occasion, had one re-chambered for the 450NE #2 and it does fine on even cape buffalo, and is in fact owned today by a PH in Africa.

I simply think these very optimistic threads on the 45-70 are dangerous to the young guys who think anything they read on one of these hunting web-sites is the word of GOD. And when a person states the 45-70 with a particular load is equal to the 375H&H without a disclaimer that states that load is only to be used in rifle far stronger than the Biakal double rifle, is IMO, a dangerous habit! This was my whole disagreement with this thread because it was mixed in a thread about a weak little double rifle without any explanation.

If used for general hunting both the chamberings, with factory ammo or equivalent, are OK in the Biakal but not with loads that come any place close to being equal to a 375 H&H magnum!

........................SOooooooooooo I guess we will simply have to agree to dis agree, and we certainly do!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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I was led to believe that the .45-70 can be loaded up to .458 WM power levels, ASSUMING you have
a rifle with an action that can handle the pressures, Ruger No.1 for example. Am I wrong ?
best
Mike

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The Cor-Bon 405-grain PEN soild on the left was recovered after penetrating both shoulders of a Cape buffalo bull and both shoudlers of a cow standing seven yards beyond. The bullet on the right was recovered after striking the buffalo in the rump, then penetrating legnthwise taking off the top of the heart and lodging in the brisket

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1st of all, we must be careful we don't let opinions and misinformation lead us astray. I prefer fact and experience to be the guidlines I go by.

Much misinformation is available, while much concrete information is also available. Personal opinions about a specific ctg., guided by their 'beliefs' or preferences can not be allowed to guide us on sitability of a particular round for a job to be done. A statement, such as made by dugaboy as to the only practical 'use' of a .45/70 fits this perceived opinion and misinformation perfectly.

I accessed several of my books on 45/70 data and rest assured, as loaded today, it's potential escalates it from it's roots and primary intention of use - that as an anti-personel weapon. Hell, the buffalo hunters of the 1870's through 80's found that out - should be bury our heads in the sand and say it didn't happen?

As loaded today, even if the allowable pressure of 20,000PSI noted by dugaboy was correct (it isn't), this round will still produce 1,700fps with a 400gr. jacketed bullet & generally 100fps higher speeds with a lead bullet of the same weight.

Although 9.3x57's 'Favourite Load" which matched the wonderfully effective .375H&H in test materials and on GAME, was shot in a modern lever gun, does not mean that speed can not be achieved with less pressure and be useable in a peceived 'weaker' action. The load he uses might produce more pressure than the Baikal can handle - I don't know - I seriously doubt it. I do know from experience, that with 'other' powders, that speed can be beated at even lower pressures than he lists as acceptable.

For instance, Hodgdon lists loads for 3 separate 'classes' of rifle, in the .45/70. They start with "Trapdoor Rifles". We can assume they mean original & replica rifles which are restricted to a certain pressure level. Their data runs up to a maximum of 28,000CUP with some pressure stable powders, bit lower, in the 25,000CUP range with most others.

We KNOW that in this particular ctg. case, PSI and CUP are the same numbers, meaning that 28,000CUP is actually the same as 28,000PSI- in this ctg. Some others share this trait, ie: .444 Marlin, .45/90, .458 Win., .44 mag. and .357 mag. Other ctgs. and case shapes do not share this 'trait'.

Hodgdon's Trapdoor Springfield data shows data for 300gr. jacketed bullets loaded to in excess of 2,000fps in 7 different loads, 7 different powders. Their data also shows speeds for 385gr. cast bullets to 1,819fps(25,900CUP) and 405gr. Cast to 1,718fps (20,900CUP). NOTE the speed and pressure!

Lee's data, safe for all .45/70 rifles in GOOD condition, shows 340gr. lead bullet at 1,850fps for a mere 18,000PSI, a 420gr. cast at 1,656fps at 17,700PSI and a 500gr. lead bullet at 1,532fps developing 18,400PSI.

Other data I have, lists .45/70 loads that do not exceed 21,000CUP chronographed in 22" bls. as in:
300gr. Nosler Partition @ 1,870fps, @ 1925fps and 1,908fps with 3 different powders.
350gr. Jacketed @ 1,730fps, 1,711fps and 1,846fps.
400gr. Jacketed @ 1,678fps, 1,744fps, 1,720fps, 1,666fps.
415gr. RCBS Cast @ 1,616fps, 1,616fps, 1,689fps, 1,710fps, 1,748fps, 1,748fps.
These 415gr. loads about dupicate or exceed 9.3's favourite load which does so well compared to the .375, in the baffles and on game - see, experience & concrete data is the best teacher, rather than outright untruthful statements of someones ill-informed beliefs - it is WAY ahead of the .30/06 - in my opinion, of course - the numbers speak for themselves and when coupled with experience, outweigh the aforementioned beliefs and statements.

Now, these are LESS than the pressure levels than Hodgdon says are OK for trapdoors and of course, are also just fine for the Baikal.
This piddling little 2.1" case as loaded above, actually is ahead of the .45 3-1/4" BPE, which develops another 5,000CUP with just it's black powder factory loads yet only barely achieves these smokeless, lighter pressure .45/70's speeds yet it must use lighter bullets than the .45/70. This old number is far from antiquated. With factory BP laods, the .45/70 developes an impressive 22,000PSI/CUP, as recorded by Accurate Arms and listed in their handloading book. I couldn't lay my hands on either book today, but they also list similar loads - in the 1,800fps range, at the same pressures or less than developed by black powder.

Raising the bar to 28,000CUP adds another 100fps to 200fps only. This is normal with such high expansion ratio ctgs.

My 1.9" .45/60 Sharps, with it's huge 1868 BP-type firing pin, is totally safe with a load of Benchmark producing 1,850fps with the 405gr. RP bullet. This load is producing under 19,000CUP as it is 1gr. above the starting load with that powder @ 17,100CUP. The longer barrel length helps, of course, yet in a short barrel of 22", this load will well produce over 1,600fps. It isno slouch. I suggest everyone interested purchase the Hodgdon Annual Manual - every year as I do. It also has some good articles - worth the price of admission in themselves.

Pick your powders and it's amazing what you can do with this old number. It is not restricted to 1,320fps with a 400gr. lead bullet - not today, it isn't - by a long shot, even though those seemingly weak ballistics kill buffalo dead - dead faster than a premium load in an '06 or .300 mag. THIS I've seen myself.

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I have both guns and have done extensive load testing with both. None of the below loads showed any signs of pressure. No flattened primers, cases just fell out etc...

Welcome to the Forum!!

And thanks for posting!

What accuracy are you getting? Please give as much detail as you can, as some of us that are interested in them are really curious. For example, even with the adjustable barrels, I've read reports of barrels shooting no closer than 4 inches at 100 yards, with center-to-center of farthest shots in four shot groups going about 6 inches. If that is about what can be expected, the ranging capability of the .30-06 is gone to waste. This is where Curl's suggestion might be a really good one; Buy both and sell the lemon, unless neither are lemons...
Anyway, your experience and comments would be very interesting.


I don't have a dog in this fight and do not wish to. Just stating what I've done and found.

Oh, if it were only that easy...............

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I think that the two schools of small fast bullets and slow thick ones are the problem here, duggaboy att the ,375 end and daryl and 9,3x57 at the other.

But why is a 458 bullet passing thru a body at the same lenght as a 375 so much worse?
I alway thought that a blunt object would be worse then a sharp/smaller one. Some time ago i slipped when trying to bend open a "sealed" air filter and ran a broken off screwdriver some 4-6mm into my left palm, and my god that hurt, i would rather take a knife and run it clean thru any day. My point is that a blunt 458 even at a lower speed should in my book be better of than a thinner one given equal penetration.

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So please educate me, why is it so much better with the 375.

btw, a quick look at a powder manufactors web a 300grs bullet at under 28000psi would give 2425fps, thats not bad, but to light for the bore sadly.

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