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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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470evans
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Reged: 30/03/05
Posts: 278
Loc: Texas, USA
Let's have some fun.
      #143415 - 10/10/09 12:01 PM

It's obvious someone spent some money getting this Lang tarted up....er, I mean refinished.

How many items can you notice that weren't done in the correct style?


http://www.pugsguns.com/findItem.action?id=2015

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: 470evans]
      #143416 - 10/10/09 12:47 PM

That's sad.

Let's make the quiz easier. How many items were done in the correct style?

Ans: Zero

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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zimhunter
.333 member


Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: CptCurl]
      #143417 - 10/10/09 01:09 PM

I'm dense correct style as to who and what?

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2435
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: CptCurl]
      #143418 - 10/10/09 01:09 PM

So what's wrong with hot dip blue?

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: 470evans]
      #143420 - 10/10/09 01:38 PM

What a shame. Presuming the barrels were good enough to have justified a restoration, had it been done correctly it would have been worth in the mid to upper $20s. As it is, this butcher job isn't worth a quarter of the asking price. I agree with Roscoe, it's easier to just observe that they got nothing right.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #143430 - 10/10/09 04:45 PM

That is amazing - not.

I agree, try to find something they have got right.

I think even the chequering is wrong but the photo
isn't quite close enough or detailed enough to see.

Edited by 500Nitro (10/10/09 04:54 PM)

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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #143440 - 10/10/09 10:05 PM

Not quite in the league of the JFD 1886 Winchester, eh!

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #143441 - 10/10/09 10:10 PM


What does JFD mean and what happened with the Winchester ?

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #143448 - 11/10/09 02:45 AM

He's referring to the 1886 Winchester built for John Dodge for sale on the same site.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #143450 - 11/10/09 03:04 AM

This thing looks like it was re-done in Mexico! Who ever did this only has taste in his mouth!


............................................

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #143460 - 11/10/09 06:53 AM

I cant see any wrong with it, it looks rather spanish or italian but thats all.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: 450_366]
      #143461 - 11/10/09 07:01 AM

Quote:

I cant see any wrong with it, it looks rather spanish or italian but thats all.



I think that's what the seller is counting on.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: 470evans]
      #143463 - 11/10/09 08:34 AM

This was originally a Joseph Lang boxlock .470 from 1913. Lang was owned by the Webley brothers, as in "Webley & Scott". This rifle was Webley's PHV-1 Model - their plain grade boxlock - finished by Webley and retailed by Lang.

Here's the normal finish of a stock standard, border engraved Webley PHV-1, these built for Lang (these can be enlarged):

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/public.sh...SaleSectionNo=1

Border engraving was standard, but a full pattern was available. Here it is on a PHV-1 built for William Evans:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=10473

The patterns on the action bars were always the same for both patterns, but could differ on the fences depending on the style of fence ordered, and Webley mixed up patterns slightly on the floor plates.

For example, from the same site, here is another engraved PHV-1 built for Manton of Calcutta. Notice the fence shape.
http://www.pugsguns.com/findItem.action?id=1741

If you look closely at the Manton, it's actually a stock standard engraved PHV-1. The only difference is that the standard Webley pattern is gold-filled. This specific model (with gold filled engraving) was advertised in Manton's catalogue. This rifle could even be the model for the engraving in the catalogue. Wood has been refinished, but the rest could be original.

Someone has tried to tart-up this Lang instead of restoring it. Nothing here is original. A complete restock was poorly done in an entirely non-original style. Not British. Has a Ferlachy flavor to it. Chequering is completely wrong. Any original engraving was polished off, the action annealed, and new "engraving" (if you want to call it that) was done. No way to tell from the photos, but may not have been re-carburized. Non-original, non-period case with the wrong trade label. Those are the high spots. Doesn't even begin to qualify as a restoration, let alone an upgrade. Quality of work is a detriment of value. Would have been better to have left it alone. Another British DR falls victim to fools.

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kamilaroi
.400 member


Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #143464 - 11/10/09 10:22 AM

Let's see what could be remedied for not much cost?

The stock could have the grip opened out, the drop tips removed, the nose trimmed and the "Ferlachy" cheeck pad removed.

Barrels could be restruck and reblacked.

Trade label of the correct period, not to hard to find a repro.

Case could be repartioned.

Any more?

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zimhunter
.333 member


Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: kamilaroi]
      #143465 - 11/10/09 10:34 AM

Let me see if I get this correct. If it is not restored to exact original specifications it is of no value. What a warped view.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: zimhunter]
      #143467 - 11/10/09 10:58 AM

Quote:

Let me see if I get this correct. If it is not restored to exact original specifications it is of no value. What a warped view.




Not a warped view, similar to US Collectors with originality
of Winchester's and Colts, except English guns are more often refinished or reconditioned and still maintain the value if done well.

Understated elegance, of which this gun is not.

In the vast majority of cases, English guns beauty is in the style and simplicity. This is just plain gaudy. Reminds me of that Purdey made for a bloke in the 70's with heaps of Gold and had Purdey say it was the "best" gun they have ever made.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: kamilaroi]
      #143473 - 11/10/09 11:20 AM

Quote:

Let's see what could be remedied for not much cost?

The stock could have the grip opened out, the drop tips removed, the nose trimmed and the "Ferlachy" cheeck pad removed.

Barrels could be restruck and reblacked.

Trade label of the correct period, not to hard to find a repro.

Case could be repartioned.

Any more?



ROFLMFAO! The one issue you mentioned is obviously not possible, and the rest isn't worth the effort.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #143475 - 11/10/09 11:32 AM

Zim, I look at it this way. I can buy a perfectly functional working grade double for $10k that will probably provide a lifetime of service. When you get above that or to several mulitples of that, I want someting more, be it handling, fit and finish, history, etc. The collector or nostalgic value is destroyed with this gun, and someone probably spent a lot of money in order to do it! It would have value only as a shooter to me.

Here is another example of what I mean: No accounting for taste!

They have a Krieghoff K-32 that was formerly listed for ~$30k with pornographic gold inlays all over it. It obviously cost someone a lot to have that done, but I wouldn't pay $100 for it. Maybe if someone gave it to me I'd file off the offending metal work and use it as a truck gun, but otherwise I'd be embarrassed to be seen with it.

Someone spent good money in order to make a good gun worth less. I can do that for free just by dropping one!

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: zimhunter]
      #143477 - 11/10/09 12:06 PM

Quote:

Let me see if I get this correct. If it is not restored to exact original specifications it is of no value. What a warped view.



I see. OK, let's follow YOUR line of reasoning.

So if YOU found an original pre-war Holland & Holland .500/.465 Royal that had been "restored" or "upgraded" with a thumbhole stock, and the barrels cut to 18 inches and Magna Ported, you'd pay the $80,000 asking price? Right?

Your statements continue to speak volumes about your utter ignorance of the subject matter.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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zimhunter
.333 member


Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #143478 - 11/10/09 12:12 PM

I suppose what you are saying that only you and others of like views taste is all that matters. You are certainly allowed to have that view but it does not have to apply to all. I personally don't like decorated guns period but that again is a personal view and I don't set myself up as the judge of values for all. All people are not collectors and beleive it or not all gun owners do not believe the art of gunmaking stopped with the British. Those,of course,are personal opinions as are the others presented on this forum. You are certainly entitled to yours as I am to mine. I don't have extensive knowledge about the collector value of english double rifles or what was or was not absolutely proper for each model and make but I would match my knowledge of many other facets of the gunmakers art with yours. I am not now nor have I ever been a collector of anything in particular. As much from a lack of interst in collecting as a lack of funds. Some collect stamps,some coins,some art, some guns, more power to them if that is their desire but don't try to imply that somehow we who do not share your same values are somehow inferior in their values. I like my Mustang and quite frankly would not trade it for a Rolls except to sell the Rolls. I feel the lines of the Mustang appeal to me much more than the Rolls. I also like vanilla ice cream and dislike choclate for what that is worth which is exactly nothing. Incidentally no where in the ad did I find any reference to this rifle having been refinished or any particulars about the process. Neither did it say it was new. I would have a hard time from the photos determining what process was used to blue the gun,I also can't tell from the photos whether the barrels and other metal were properly resurfaced prior to refinish. The fit SEEMS good and the wood work looks good as to fit and finish. Being a school trained gunsmith of almost 60 years I believe I DO understand a FEW things about guns.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: zimhunter]
      #143480 - 11/10/09 12:35 PM

Quote:

I suppose what you are saying that only you and others of like views taste is all that matters. You are certainly allowed to have that view but it does not have to apply to all. I personally don't like decorated guns period but that again is a personal view and I don't set myself up as the judge of values for all. All people are not collectors and beleive it or not all gun owners do not believe the art of gunmaking stopped with the British. Those,of course,are personal opinions as are the others presented on this forum. You are certainly entitled to yours as I am to mine.



Then your answer to my above question is "YES". Right? Stay on point and answer the question, as that is the question posed by the OP.

The OP asked this question:

Quote:

It's obvious someone spent some money getting this Lang tarted up....er, I mean refinished.

How many items can you notice that weren't done in the correct style?


http://www.pugsguns.com/findItem.action?id=2015 />


Your response was:

Quote:

I'm dense correct style as to who and what?



You were so ignorant of the subject matter that you had to ask what he meant. Then you presumed to express an opinion on a subject that you factually are and admit to being utterly clueless about, and then have the arrogance to express contempt for the subject at hand.

Since you expressed your incomprehensible opinion so forcefully, I don't think it's too much to ask that you answer the question:

Quote:

So if YOU found an original pre-war Holland & Holland .500/.465 Royal that had been "restored" or "upgraded" with a thumbhole stock, and the barrels cut to 18 inches and Magna Ported, you'd pay the $80,000 asking price? Right?



I ask because it seems to me that my question fairly characterizes your expressed opinion. Hey, I'm just trying to understand.


--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: zimhunter]
      #143482 - 11/10/09 12:42 PM

"A difference of opinion is what makes horse racing and missionaries." -Will Rogers

Thank goodness we DON'T all like the same thing. That's what makes life interesting.

I just think that when a seller is asking for the premium that is usually associated with condition and originality on a vintage gun, the gun's condition should reflect that. If the price was $10-12k I don't think anyone would raise these arguments. I've generally found that as the price goes up the buyers get pickier about what their dollar is buying. I know I do.

Just my opinion, no more valid than anyone else's.

Cheers,
Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: zimhunter]
      #143483 - 11/10/09 12:51 PM

Quote:

I suppose what you are saying that only you and others of like views taste is all that matters. You are certainly allowed to have that view but it does not have to apply to all. I personally don't like decorated guns period but that again is a personal view and I don't set myself up as the judge of values for all. All people are not collectors and beleive it or not all gun owners do not believe the art of gunmaking stopped with the British. Those,of course,are personal opinions as are the others presented on this forum. You are certainly entitled to yours as I am to mine. I don't have extensive knowledge about the collector value of english double rifles or what was or was not absolutely proper for each model and make but I would match my knowledge of many other facets of the gunmakers art with yours. I am not now nor have I ever been a collector of anything in particular. As much from a lack of interst in collecting as a lack of funds. Some collect stamps,some coins,some art, some guns, more power to them if that is their desire but don't try to imply that somehow we who do not share your same values are somehow inferior in their values. I like my Mustang and quite frankly would not trade it for a Rolls except to sell the Rolls. I feel the lines of the Mustang appeal to me much more than the Rolls. I also like vanilla ice cream and dislike choclate for what that is worth which is exactly nothing. Incidentally no where in the ad did I find any reference to this rifle having been refinished or any particulars about the process. Neither did it say it was new. I would have a hard time from the photos determining what process was used to blue the gun,I also can't tell from the photos whether the barrels and other metal were properly resurfaced prior to refinish. The fit SEEMS good and the wood work looks good as to fit and finish. Being a school trained gunsmith of almost 60 years I believe I DO understand a FEW things about guns.




Zim

You are totally and utterley missing the point.

"beleive it or not all gun owners do not believe the art of gunmaking stopped with the British"

Of course it didn't, the Germans, French, Italians, Spanish, Yanks plus many other, all made great guns
in their STYLE and how their customers wanted them.

But to take this gun and turn it into something an utter abomination is something 99.9% of DR hunter OR collectors would not like.

Collector or Hunter - I think you'll find those who like DR's have DR's that they bought for hunting and DR's they bought for Collecing purposes. I know I have a few "collectors" and more hunters, CptCurl has both by the looks of it and quite a few others I know of.

Cars - since you bought up the subject - I like Mustangs and Roll Royce's and like them for what they are and what each represents. I wouldn't want a Rolls with flares and spoilers.

And as for the last bit, as 400 said, if you can't tell what is wrong, then it shows you're level of knowledge
so no point in going back to the start.

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zimhunter
.333 member


Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #143484 - 11/10/09 01:00 PM

The answer to your question is no I would not buy it. I don't like thumbhole stocks first and see little use for an 18" barrel shotgun except for personal protection and then it would not be a two shooter but have no objection to magna porting of shotgun barrels as one of my Browning O/U's is ported. I actually don't particularly like H&H shotguns period. In fact I don't particularly handle s/s shotguns very well after owning several thru the years including Mdl 21's and a couple of Parkers,Foxes and L.C. Smiths. I shoot mostly O/U's and the only fancy one I have at the time is a 28ga Browning Lightening which I admit does have engraving and gold birds on it. My favorite being a Beretta ASE with solid rib and English stock. It is VERY plain except for the wood which is a nice piece. I still maintain my first question. After reading the responses I see the writer was asking what was different from the original and what had been changed I suppose from what was lang's NORMAL style. Since none of us saw the gun before it was refinished none of us can say and we are only drawing personal conclusions as to what it's appearance was based on remaining Lang's of the same basic model. I also might say I have never bought a gun that was not to be used no matter what the value or decoration. And I can truthfully say that I have never in over 60 years bought a gun as an investment.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Let's have some fun. [Re: zimhunter]
      #143491 - 11/10/09 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by zimhunter:
And I can truthfully say that I have never in over 60 years bought a gun as an investment.



That's the point. You don't understand these guns, have no desire to, as you have expressed comtempt for them, nor have you ever even owned one. These pre-war British double rifles have two components to value - shooter and collector. Assuming good original quality, if they've been properly cared for, and any work, including "restoration", done to at least original quality standard, they all have BOTH, and have had for many years.

The indignity that this piece has suffered utterly destroyed any collector value it might have had. It's value now is strictly as a shooter. As Bob correctly observed, $10,000 will get you that. Frankly, that's too much for this rifle. In HIGH original condition, this rifle would be worth at least $10,000 less than the asking price. You didn't even notice the price, did you? Wasn't relative to your agenda.

Quote:

Since none of us saw the gun before it was refinished none of us can say and we are only drawing personal conclusions as to what it's appearance was based on remaining Lang's of the same basic model.



The half dozen or so guys that have posted on this string that qualify as expert on these rifles don't seem to agree with you. Henry Webley would have tossed that piece into the furnace before he'd have let such a cluster fuck out the door with the name of his company on it.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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