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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder
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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question
      #129245 - 11/03/09 03:22 AM

My friend Dr Ka'imiloa Chrisman has found an old 6 Bore Muzzleloader which he plans to restore. He has some questions as follows:

" I recently stumbled upon an old, much repaired double-barrel muzzleloading gun made I'm sure for dangerous game such as elephant hunting in its infancy in the 1850s. It is Birmingham proofed at 6-bore yet now measures 5 bore (.98") with no sign of rifling I can see. The whole gun is massively built, barrels are 24" long yet the barrel set alone weighs over ten pounds. Barrels made by the English barrel-making firm of Rose's and is stamped ROSE'S near the front proof mark. Total weight 16 pounds plus. Barrels and locks in good shape and latter plus breech tang have English style engraving. I will restore it and shoot it.
Would much appreciate any and all assistance or references about such muzzleloading big-bore guns: loads, usage, articles and books - especially the 6 to 4-bore range of course. I have had little luck at finding information. Thank you all in advance."

A picture of the gun in question is:



As Ka'imiloa has many friends here and some may mail information to him directly, I would request that if you do this, please also post this information on the forums so that we have a pleasant thread about the discussion in question.

Thank you very much in advance and good hunting, everyone!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

Edited by CptCurl (04/07/11 10:35 PM)

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gatsby
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #129247 - 11/03/09 03:49 AM

Wow, what a find! Can you get a barrel wall measurement? The attempt to provide some extra padding says it all. Load wise I say a heaping handful in a tight situation, maybe a tad more.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylSModerator
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: gatsby]
      #129255 - 11/03/09 06:23 AM

Most interesting find indeed. Not much help here, but a friend of mine has a 6 bore double ball and shot gun, that was re-furbished by H&H and bored to 5 bore to bring some pits under control. The bores are now as if new as-is the rest of the gun. I do need 'Wil' to take some pictures and send them to me.
The re-boring might have been what happened to this one, although it's obvious it wasn't refurbished any time recently?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: DarylS]
      #129305 - 11/03/09 10:37 PM

in 150 years it can rusted from 6 bore to 5 bore

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: lancaster]
      #129432 - 13/03/09 02:16 PM

Gentlemen,

I just noticed that Ka'imiloa has signed up as a member and I look forward to his post on this thread with more information. As a FEGA member and highly esteemed engraver and restorer he always has some amazing surprises and I look forward to seeing many of them over here and to his participation on a regular basis.

Of course, I shall be waiting to see this particular rifle come alive with his TLC and to see him hunt with it as I am sure he will.

Good hunting and please keep the comments coming!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Kaimiloa
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Reged: 12/03/09
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Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #129438 - 13/03/09 04:22 PM

Thanks for the input, folks. Mehul must be either very sharp-eyed or else clairvoyant to know that I just signed up for the forum - probably some of both, knowing him. Mehul is my unofficial PR agent since his flattering commentaries always makes me feel like a Prince.
The old 6-bore, now 5 bore due to who-knows-what, is almost completely disassembled now, except for removing the nipples -still stubbornly in place - and the tin? and copper wrap on the forend which seems glued on. Excess solder between muzzles now off and the amount of wear and pitting all around both openings indicates very strongly that the barrels have never been cut down and are original length (24"). Careful, tedious rust removal by a technique I developed for myself has left a great deal of the original browning intact. Barrels and locks look pretty good, whereas buttplate is significantly pitted. This is not uncommon.
The well reinforced ramrod (both ends) is also the proper length for the barrels, and has a ball-pulling screw on the end rather than the worm that might be found on a shotgun. Overall weight of gun, truely massive short barrels, and ramrod all point to initial life as a dangerous game gun, yet I suspect it did see use as a fowler in California once its former life was done. A learned colleague in England says the most likely scenario is that it first went to India for dangerous game, then went with someone from there to America. Many is the gun which has seen more usages than that for which it was originally built.
Any and all input, references or pics relating to these old ML big-bores will be greatly appreciated.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.

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Kaimiloa
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Reged: 12/03/09
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #129439 - 13/03/09 04:31 PM

Gatsby, the barrels are about .080 thick at the muzzles (approximately twice that of the usual ML shotgun) and the breech thickness is arrived at by subtracting bore D. of .98" from total O.D. of barrels as closely as I can measure them. Wall thickness of one barrel is about 0.315" thick at breech and the other about 0.354". Total weight of barrels alone is over ten pounds.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #129484 - 14/03/09 04:00 AM

I would plug the nipples, muzzles up and pour about 4oz. of KROIL down each barrel. Let them sit for a week, then re-try the nipples. Tapping them on the top of their tubes first to 'jar' the rust. Doing this once a day is also good.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Kaimiloa
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Reged: 12/03/09
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: DarylS]
      #130075 - 20/03/09 11:02 AM

Thanks Daryl,
I'm very fond of Kroil but due to its scarcity around here I tend to use drops instead of ounces! Have been applying Kroil off and on since I brought the gun home, and also applying a few drops down-barrel with barrels then positioned for best effect. Have also done the tapping, tho not daily, and used some modest heat. Really need to build close-fitting nipple wrenches for the non-matching nipples. One square, the other typical rectangular base but worn.
A friend who works with old cars suggested a twist on ordinary heating which I will try: heat some appropriate object (old screwdriver in the case of screws) that fits the stubborn part well til it is red hot. Apply to the frozen part so the very localized heat works to break up the metallic adhesion between the threads and the hole. Part usually comes out he says.
I've certainly tried every other way of getting out old gun screws and nipples, and so far haven't broken any off. PATIENCE and TIME are the keys, and appropriate well-fitted removal tools. I know I'm "preachin' to the choir".
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #130134 - 21/03/09 03:12 AM

Go slow - good luck. We unbreeched a Manton 14 bore double shotgun - of the 1840/1850 period after soaking in a solvent I found in my Dad's shop supplies. That solivent or penetrating oil was a green colour. I don't know what it is, but smells like Varsol and Kerosene with perhaps some mineral oil. I don't knwo where the 'green' colour comes from. That is a combination that would allow 'soaking' from the inside.

Kroil is not available here - must be picked up State's side of the border. I am rather extravagant with it, even to giving my bro 1/2 of what I had. I mixed up some more, 50/50 with Butches Bore Shine as a solvent for my .17 centre fires. It really works well with no need to neutralize what's left in the bore, after cleaning as should to be done with all 'copper' solvents.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Dphariss
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: DarylS]
      #130194 - 22/03/09 02:59 AM

Diesel fuel may help as might ATF or ATF and diesel mixed perhaps.
Its nice it there is enough in the bore to put some pressure on the parts to aid in penetration.

Dan

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #130224 - 22/03/09 01:48 PM

Quote:

Thanks for the input, folks. Mehul must be either very sharp-eyed or else clairvoyant to know that I just signed up for the forum - probably some of both, knowing him. Mehul is my unofficial PR agent since his flattering commentaries always makes me feel like a Prince.

...

Any and all input, references or pics relating to these old ML big-bores will be greatly appreciated.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa



Ka'imiloa

Welcome to the NitroExpress.com forums. I hope you enjoy interacting here and good luck on your project.

PS I like the way you have laid out the setting in your photograph too.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Kaimiloa
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Reged: 12/03/09
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Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: NitroX]
      #130723 - 29/03/09 04:22 AM

Once I figure out how to do it, I'll post some pictures of the restoration progress on the old 6-bore (actually 5-bore at 0.98" bore) double. Realizing after much research that an old (ca., 1785), much-used but high quality fowler I bought to restore is in fact a Durs Egg gun has thrown me off the track for a bit! Ah, my "forensic gunsmithing" is a lot of work but also a lot of fun.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #131058 - 01/04/09 07:49 AM

Some more pictures sent in by Ka'imiloa to show how the restoration is progressing. My guess is that the transformation is going to be great to watch as these projects always are. Happy viewing!















Ka'imiloa's note says:

Here are the promised pics of the progress so far on the old 6-bore double (actually 5-bore). You will see the gun with its braces, barrel wrap and crude buttpad removed; the underside of the heavily re-soldered barrels plus ball-puller ramrod; the restored parts; the engraving (curiously mismatched); the mismatched top rib and rib-extension suggesting the rib was a replacement; the evenly corroded muzzles showing that the barrels are likely original length at 24"; the Proof(Birmingham) and Maker's (ROSE'S) marks.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

Edited by CptCurl (04/07/11 10:35 PM)

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DarylSModerator
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #131067 - 01/04/09 10:44 AM

Good job, so far. The nipples look a bit nasty, but should come out with some soaking. A bit of heat and tapping with a steel hammer just before trying them might help break the 'bond'.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Kaimiloa
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Reged: 12/03/09
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: DarylS]
      #131106 - 01/04/09 06:09 PM

I've tried all sorts of tricks on stubborn old nipples, Daryl, and so far have always succeeded in the end. Having a strong PATIENCE gene certainly helps - as you know!
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.

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Kaimiloa
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #131630 - 06/04/09 05:49 PM

Reading thru W.W. Greener's 9th Ed. of "The Gun and its Development" again today, I could confirm that this old gun's weight for bore-size, barrel length, and smoothbore status are all in keeping with a short-barrelled, dangerous-game ball gun - as in elephants. These specialty guns were accurate to 60 yds. he states.

Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.

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kamilaroi
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #131631 - 06/04/09 06:11 PM

Any chance as to a close up of the locks' (mechanisms) and makers. Brazier perhaps?

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DarylSModerator
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: kamilaroi]
      #131663 - 07/04/09 01:13 AM

I have some solvent left, that we found in Dad's shop when cleaning it out after he passed away. This solvent is green in colour, and was in an obscure can - no markings. We've used it to get the nipples and breeches out of a few guns now. We set the barrels down into the solvent, with a few ounces poured insize as well, when nipple seats were plugged. In around 7 days, the plugs and nipples come out easily. I surely wish I knew what it was. Green- anyone have any ideas? It sure is good stuff.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Kaimiloa
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: kamilaroi]
      #131712 - 07/04/09 05:17 PM

Kamilaroi, I'll see what I can do re getting some lock pics posted. They are certainly not Brazier quality but are moderately good as old ML locks of the 1850s-60s era go. Click up quite well, and the lock plates have modest but good engraving. They are pretty well restored already, but I would like to find replacement hammers (tough, these are BIG ones!) and engrave them to match the lock plates.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.

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Kaimiloa
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: DarylS]
      #132121 - 12/04/09 06:15 PM

Daryl, I have a Canadian friend on Vancouver Is., B.C. and so I asked him about the green solvent. He suggested it might be something like Accubore, with copper fouling in it that makes it look green. Seemed like a possibility.
Aloha, Ka'imiloa

--------------------
Few pleasures exceed restoring a nice old gun and returning it to shooting and hunting.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: Kaimiloa]
      #132139 - 13/04/09 01:11 AM

Good thought - but my Dad never heard of accubore & he had this stuff long ago. Also, he was frugal enough to never have purchased a quart of it - or by the gallon as I'm sure the original container held. Probably not legal for sale in Canada now - HA! - like many other things that are 'bad for us'. Good thing the government is looking after us.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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MacNaughton360
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: DarylS]
      #132215 - 14/04/09 02:31 AM

Daryl, Green and an odd odor? It could be a diesel engine carbon dissolver called Centralube. An elderly friend was once a farmer and swears by it for soaking rusted parts loose. It may take months, he says, but it'll soak the most stubbornly rusted machine or gun parts loose. I used it on my rusty crusty M97 Winchester Trench Gun action I found in his barn and it looks almost presentable.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: MacNaughton360]
      #132260 - 14/04/09 08:29 AM

MacNaughton360 - you may have the answer - it does smell something like an engine cleaner might - soaked a set of original 14 bore muzzleloading barrels for 1 week, and the breeches turned right out to reveal absolutely perfect theads - same with a stubborn mauser action threads - rusted in the breech area. Good stuff.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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MacNaughton360
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Re: 6 Bore ML Rifle Restoration Question [Re: DarylS]
      #132325 - 15/04/09 02:28 AM

Daryl- I keep a PVC pipe full of Centralube strapped to a post in my pole barn and there is always some sort of rusty gun hanging in it. It seems I attract rusty ones like a magnet... (grin) Also a bucket full with rusty planes, tools and bullet molds and other relics in it. It soaked loose a P38 lower assembly that the mice peed on, it looks like heck but shoots fine with new wire springs. The trigger and hammer were frozen with rust.

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