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Caprivi
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Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360
      #130526 - 26/03/09 02:01 PM

Looking for some information on the 9x57R/360. I have found a very affordable Combo gun (actual condition to be determined) in this and would like any information on the catridge. I am being assumptive that it is the 9x57 mauser with a Rim, with the 360 moniker being a english attachment.........?????????????

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500Nitro
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: Caprivi]
      #130528 - 26/03/09 02:29 PM


Caprivi


Always worth owning a copy of Cartridges of the World.

best reference book to have on hand.


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Caprivi
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #130529 - 26/03/09 02:41 PM

Thanks 500,

I have it and it doesn't have much to say.

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fuhrmann
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: Caprivi]
      #130539 - 26/03/09 07:06 PM

There are 2 very different cartridge groups which are often confused:

1. the 9.3x57R/360 is a very old cartridge (say 1880s), descending from the British .360 Express 2 1/4, conical or tapered case, dimensions very similar but not identical to the Bitish case.
This was the time before cartridge dimensions were standardized, so there were different versions with respect to case shape, bullet diameter, and loads (black and nitro).
There never was a 9x57R/360, but versions copying British dimensions were closer to 9 mm than 9.3 mm (but to my knowledge always called "9.3" in Germany).
The 9.3x57R/360 must have been quite popular at some time, but was then quickly superseded by the longer 9.3x72R.
Cases can be formed from the 9.3x72R. Base diameter is about .430.
There was an article by Ross Seyfried in Handloader, 2003, and another one by Helmut Eller in Deutsches Waffen-Journal, 1994. I can send you these as .pdf files.
I also have some own experience and loading data.

2. the Mauser family: bottleneck cases, base diameter about .470.
there was a 9x57 (rimless), a 9x57R (rimmed), a 9.3x57 (rimless), but to my knowledge never a rimmed 9.3x57R.

Fuhrmann


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450_366
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: Caprivi]
      #130540 - 26/03/09 07:10 PM

When they wrote /360 it usually ment it was the 9,3/57r to begin with, then taken down to ex. 8mm being the 8x57r/360.

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500Nitro
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: 450_366]
      #130541 - 26/03/09 07:21 PM



Caprivi

If you buy it, might sure you slug the bore and get correct dimensions first before firing.

.360 or 9mm versus .366 is a fai bit of swaging if you use the wrong bullet, especially in an old gun like that.


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lancaster
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: fuhrmann]
      #130550 - 26/03/09 10:47 PM

Quote:

There are 2 very different cartridge groups which are often confused:

1. the 9.3x57R/360 is a very old cartridge (say 1880s), descending from the British .360 Express 2 1/4, conical or tapered case, dimensions very similar but not identical to the Bitish case.
This was the time before cartridge dimensions were standardized, so there were different versions with respect to case shape, bullet diameter, and loads (black and nitro).
There never was a 9x57R/360, but versions copying British dimensions were closer to 9 mm than 9.3 mm (but to my knowledge always called "9.3" in Germany).
The 9.3x57R/360 must have been quite popular at some time, but was then quickly superseded by the longer 9.3x72R.
Cases can be formed from the 9.3x72R. Base diameter is about .430.
There was an article by Ross Seyfried in Handloader, 2003, and another one by Helmut Eller in Deutsches Waffen-Journal, 1994. I can send you these as .pdf files.
I also have some own experience and loading data.

2. the Mauser family: bottleneck cases, base diameter about .470.
there was a 9x57 (rimless), a 9x57R (rimmed), a 9.3x57 (rimless), but to my knowledge never a rimmed 9.3x57R.

Fuhrmann




hello fuhrmann

its all correctly and I have never had a 9,3x57R mauser in my hands till now but the 1926 Steigleder list have this round on paper: 9,3x57 without and with rim - ohne und mit Rand


there are some 9,3x57 mauser rifles from suhl coming to surface now and there can be no doubt that when a swedish baron have order a double rifle before ww2, suhl delievered this

german designation for cartridges based on express cartridge cases is simple: 9,3x57R 360( the last is the mother case)

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (07/07/10 04:51 AM)


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fuhrmann
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: lancaster]
      #130553 - 26/03/09 11:17 PM

Quote:

hello fuhrmann

its all correctly and I have never had a 9,3x57R mauser in my hands till now but the 1926 Steigleder list have this round on paper: 9,3x57 without and with rim - ohne und mit Rand
...
there are some 9,3x57 mauser rifles from suhl coming to surface now and there can be no doubt that when a swedish baron have order a double rifle before ww2, suhl delievered this

german designation for cartridges based on express cartridge cases is simple: 9,3x57R 360( the last is the mother case)




Hello Lancaster,

you are right - one should never say "Never" with these old cartridges.
But still, a rimmed 9.3x57R "Mauser" would be really rare!
Remember the excerpt from the Burgsmueller 1927 catalog that you sent me some time ago?
It lists a "9.3x57 mit Rand", ballistics clearly in the "Mauser range".
At that time I thought this was a printing error.
But then, there is also a "9,3x62 mit Rand - ohne Rand". Who knows, another rare bird?

Fuhrmann


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Caprivi
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: fuhrmann]
      #130560 - 27/03/09 12:37 AM

"There never was a 9x57R/360" I stated this as this is what the ventor has it listed as....?????

"but to my knowledge never a rimmed 9.3x57R." Here in the states there are quite a few Husq 17 combo's for sale in this designation.

"When they wrote /360 it usually ment it was the 9,3/57r to begin with, then taken down to ex. 8mm being the 8x57r/360." I have noticed the /360 attacthed to a few catridges....again....????

"If you buy it, might sure you slug the bore and get correct dimensions first before firing." This is a definite, certainly I will make all attempts to decipher the correct chambering.

"There was an article by Ross Seyfried in Handloader, 2003, and another one by Helmut Eller in Deutsches Waffen-Journal, 1994. I can send you these as .pdf files." Yes, I would like copies of those.

"there are some 9,3x57 mauser rifles from suhl coming to surface now " There are quite a few HVA 46's appearing here in the states now.

"you are right - one should never say "Never" with these old cartridges." So very true.



Thank you for the future information. These old birds can be a bit confusing at first, but that is what makes them all the more attractive. I will be talking with the ventor this Afternoon, so maybe some pictures and more info will be forthcoming from my end.

That said for a bit of a tease, it is a 12ga (unknown chamber length) SXS combo with 3 leaf sight and is a back action (semi island lock) hammer gun. DAH looks a bit much but we shall see.

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: fuhrmann]
      #130561 - 27/03/09 12:48 AM

you are very rigth, someone have only to look for this in sweden

back to the future: the 9,3x57R360 was a very popular round in sweden,long after the 9,3x72R become THE drilling cartridge. maybe no firm build more rifles, single, double and combination than Husqvarna

this belgian made is probaly a swede http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.p...76974d9ccc0c8b0

someone dont know it by simpsons or its the old problem with belgium made parts or guns in the white making for the swedish market and finish from husqvarna
nice price btw

combo in 12,7x44R http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.p...76974d9ccc0c8b0
belgium? more likely sweden

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: lancaster]
      #130562 - 27/03/09 01:00 AM

http://www.skydevaaben.com/husqvarna/model33/info.xml

the 9,3x57R 360 is the german copy of the 360 BPE 2 1/4"

you see a original british coiled case cartridge here between the 476 enfield and the 10 ga wire cartridge
very similar but later british cartridges will not fit in german chambers

there are a lot of german made cartridge from this old british round
6,5x40R360
6,5x48R360
6,5x58R360
8,15x46R
8x57R 360
8x58 S&S
7x72R
8x72R
9,3x72R
9,3x80R
9,3x82R

and the cartridges I forget here

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (07/07/10 04:51 AM)


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Caprivi
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: lancaster]
      #130565 - 27/03/09 02:01 AM

Thanks for the update. I have not got thru to the vendor yet, so no new news.

This chambering I am finding is pretty anemic, I was hoping for a loading of a 232-250gr bullet at 1900-2100 or so. In the 38/55 or 35rem power range. I am assuming this may not be it.

I was thinking it would be more towards the 360#2

--------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: Caprivi]
      #130567 - 27/03/09 02:15 AM

Excellent link, Lancaster. My first thought was a 360gr. bullet as per Us 1800's designations - but - WRONG - different meanings for the German round. This is a deer ctg. only and would be a fun gun to shoot and develope rounds for.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Caprivi
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: DarylS]
      #130570 - 27/03/09 02:37 AM

Any idea what kind of performance I could expect from this....?????

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fuhrmann
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: Caprivi]
      #130573 - 27/03/09 02:56 AM

Quote:


Thank you for the future information. These old birds can be a bit confusing at first, but that is what makes them all the more attractive. I will be talking with the ventor this Afternoon, so maybe some pictures and more info will be forthcoming from my end.

That said for a bit of a tease, it is a 12ga (unknown chamber length) SXS combo with 3 leaf sight and is a back action (semi island lock) hammer gun. DAH looks a bit much but we shall see.




Caprivi,
I just sent you an e-mail, with the articles attached.
Yes, at first this is a bit confusing.
Bear in mind that in the old days cartridge designations and markings on rifles were not standardized.

Husqvarna guns to my knowledge were chambered for the 9.3x57R/360 - but maybe they were marked only "9.3x57R"?
I repeat, it is a 9.3x57 R MAUSER, the existence of which is very questionable.

Fuhrmann


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fuhrmann
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: Caprivi]
      #130575 - 27/03/09 03:02 AM

Quote:

Any idea what kind of performance I could expect from this....?????




I have searched all available literature for original ballistic data of the 9.3x57R/360, but did not find anything meaningful.
In those days - before 1900 - ballistics were not developed very much.

Now I load for my rifle the 12.5 gram / 193 grain RWS bullet for the 9.3x72R, to a muzzle velocity of max. 540 m/s (1770 fps).
The rifle is nitro proofed; I would not use that load with a rifle that is only BP proofed.

Fuhrmann


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fuhrmann
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: lancaster]
      #130576 - 27/03/09 03:07 AM

Quote:

there are a lot of german made cartridge from this old british round
6,5x40R360
6,5x48R360
6,5x58R360
8,15x46R
8x57R 360
8x58 S&S
7x72R
8x72R
9,3x72R
9,3x80R
9,3x82R

and the cartridges I forget here




Lancaster,

you could add all the American cartridges that may also have been derived from the British .360:
.38-55
.30-30
.25-35
.22 Savage
etc. etc.


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450_366
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: fuhrmann]
      #130577 - 27/03/09 03:22 AM

Something like this maybe?



--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by CptCurl (07/07/10 04:52 AM)


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Caprivi
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: 450_366]
      #130580 - 27/03/09 03:52 AM

This has all been very, very informative, but alas is now a mute point as Gun has sold before I could get thru to them.

here is the link:
http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.p...4ba9928d8a03260


Simpson Ltd is a good source for Husqvarna guns, well really all things european.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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fuhrmann
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: lancaster]
      #131996 - 10/04/09 11:02 PM

Quote:

you are very rigth, someone have only to look for this in sweden

quote]

Hi Lancaster,

lookie here:
http://www.93x57r.se/

Fuhrmann

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9.3x57
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: fuhrmann]
      #131997 - 10/04/09 11:47 PM

Check rim thickness, too, as I believe the rim thickness on the 9,3x57R/.360 is thicker than the rim on the 9,3x72R. At least, in most cases...

This is the .360, I believe, carried by Nansen on his great trek during the now-famous and still utterly amazing "Farthest North" expedition. His expedition can really only be compared to a lunar expedition of today. Indeed, it was more difficult in some ways, as he had no contact with the outside world for over two years.

Muzzle velocities in a rifle are similar to what are generated by the .357 Magnum in a handgun; about 1400-1500 fps with a 150 to 160 grain bullet IIRC. Nansen rouytinely used this combination on Polar Bear with good success. His Cape Guns had 20 bore shtgun barrels and he did bring slugs of some type {probably round ball} loads for the 20 bore.

Tho ballistics do not say "Polar Bear" to us today, his choice of gun, like all equipment, was very well thought out. Remember, all gear had to be dragged by sled, pulled by dogs or man, so weight of ammunition was VERY important. 20 bore guns killed bird life well, and the rifle handled seals and other mammal life as well. Amazing man. Amazing trek. Certainly in the great tradition of the Norse explorers of the Viking era.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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lancaster
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: fuhrmann]
      #132015 - 11/04/09 03:24 AM

Quote:

Quote:

you are very rigth, someone have only to look for this in sweden

quote]

Hi Lancaster,

lookie here:
http://www.93x57r.se/

Fuhrmann




I know that it must be there!
you never know it before if a cartridge become popular, maybe a Norma standard round in 10 years

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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GroovyMike
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: lancaster]
      #163311 - 04/07/10 12:29 AM

I have this cape gun. It's a Henry Pieper sxs with 12 gauge 2 1/2 inch on one side and what seems to be 9.3x57R on the right. I have found brass and projectiles at Buffalo Arms. They cut down 30-40 Krag brass and sell a jacketed 193 grain projectile. Initial loads with H322 and Alliant 2400 prove to be VERY accurate, but I am loading without the benefit of the proper dies. Can anyone recommend a source for 9.3x57R dies?

--------------------
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4


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lancaster
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: GroovyMike]
      #163312 - 04/07/10 01:19 AM

CH4D
it would be better if you send Dave some fired cases for don't having trouble with odd chamber dimension's

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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GroovyMike
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Re: Combo/Cape in 9x57R/360 [Re: lancaster]
      #163518 - 07/07/10 01:45 AM

Pieper cape gun 12 and 9.3x57R (360 NE)? or maybe 9.3x60R?









I bought this gun as a 12 gauge and 38-55 combination. Pieper in fact made a 12/38-55 combination. 38-55 cases chamber. The prior owner believed it was a 38-55 and fired 38-55 from the rifled barrel. There is in fact a pair of stamps under the rifled barrel. One is ‘38’ and just after it ‘55’ While I am no expert there are a multitude of stamps which appear to be of Belgian origin, but none that designate the chambering that I can see.





Despite that – the bore is .366. 9.3x72R will not chamber – these cases are at least a half inch too long. I picked up some 360 Nitro Express cases as converted from 30-40 Krag by Buffalo Arms and loaded these with 9.3 diameter projectiles. They shoot very well and the fire formed cases appear to be straight walled. I am wondering if the length is correct. It might just be 9.3x60R if such a chambering was ever made.

Any chance that you have encountered something similar?

Thanks in advance for any info:

Mike

--------------------
Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart. Psalm 37:4

Edited by CptCurl (07/07/10 04:53 AM)


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