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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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SanFranShootr
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Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles
      #129495 - 14/03/09 06:38 AM

I've seen Brno and Merkel O/U online. In particular I see that Merkel makes or made a sidelock O/U. I like the O/U in a shotgun versus a SxS. I'm considering a .375 H&H.


Can anyone comment on O/U performance, safety and resale issues versus a SxS. Other things a DR newbie should know regarding an O/U?

Thanks.

--------------------
My everyday squirrel gun is an FN-M3M

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: SanFranShootr]
      #129505 - 14/03/09 07:11 AM

There are some really nice O/U rifles out there. As far as I know, they are safe and the Merkels lock up tight as a bank vault. There are some real values out there, because all things being equal, an O/U rifle brings less than a SxS rifle of equal build quality and embellishment.

Here's a photo of a .375 H&H Merkel I have:







Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (23/01/10 11:04 PM)

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André
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: CptCurl]
      #129661 - 16/03/09 12:43 AM

My FN-Browning CCS25 in 9,3x74R :







Cf. lower right corner : signature of J Baerten, former FN's master engraver.



--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

Edited by CptCurl (23/01/10 11:06 PM)

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Schauckis
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: André]
      #129678 - 16/03/09 03:01 AM

FINALLY someone with the Browning!!

Andre: comments, experiences, please!!
I have been considering the Antonio Zoli Focus, the Browning or the Beretta.
A friend of mine has the Beretta but it suffer from some (unspecified, I'm afraid!) problems that he tells me are typical of the model, and consequently he's been dissatisfied.
The Zoli I know through their shotgun lineage - and this forum has provided me with a load of other useful info; but the Great Unknown to me is the Browning!

I tried it out at an outdoors fair, and it certainly fits me like a glove; even better than the Zoli.
Also the sights are good, the woodwork and finish very nice plus the barrels are adjustable via some sleeve arrangement.
But otherwise: how is it to shoot, reliability, any issues? There are two models: either to be recommended over the other? Is is cock-on-opening, or does it have a cocking lever as per some German guns? Accuracy OK?
Can switch barrels be obtained? It's based on the 20 gauge shotgun frame, so one would assume that combo and/or shotgun and/or other rifle caliber barrels could be obtained. Do you know if this is so?
Is the 9,3mm the largest? Zoli not long ago came out with a .450/400 which is interesting, indeed.

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

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bwananelson
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: Schauckis]
      #129695 - 16/03/09 08:04 AM

i have two zoli's and love them the 93x74R for light duty and the 450 400 for heavy duty needs.a detachable trigger system for easy cleaning and pleasing to the eye engraved or plain

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.

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Schauckis
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: bwananelson]
      #129747 - 16/03/09 11:40 PM

I know that if the gun is fitted with the single trigger, it's quick-detachable. Is it the same for the double-trigger set-up, as well?

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

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André
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: Schauckis]
      #129769 - 17/03/09 03:39 AM

Well, let's put some things straight regarding Browning double rifles..

Presently, Browning is marketing 2 kinds of O/U rifles :

1. the real McCoy, called the CCS 25 and based on a specially machined 20 ga action forging. The bottom of the action is not hollowed out and the side walls are much thicker than on a shotgun. To illustrate my point, here's a pic of a B25 12 ga receiver (L) compared to a 20 ga sized rifle receiver (R) :



The double rifle also on its right side is fitted with 2 hollow gas screws to divert gases from the shooter's face in case of a primer/case rupture (see pic, the arrows point to the gas screws masked by the engraving) :



Barrel regulating is the classic (and expensive) wedge moving/soldering + test shooting (see pic) :



Standard calibers are : 30R Blaser, 8x57 JRS, 9,3x74R. When properly done, the rifle is extremely accurate. Here's how my 9,3x74R groups both barrels at 50 m (scoped & elbow rest) :



Being 90% handmade, the CCS 25 is expensive. 2009 retail prices go from 9.600 € (12.000 USD) to 15.750 € (19.688 USD), according to grade. My rifle, a B 5 "middle of the road" sells for 13.500 € (16.875 USD). It is possible to have a 100% custom rifle built to one's fantasy (cost ?!?).

2. the "look alike" CCS 525, built on a 20 ga B 525 shotgun action. Fully mechanized production, it's a nice, well made rifle. Bbl. regulation is easily (self-)achieved via a sliding ring between muzzles. Economically priced at 3.399 € (4.249 USD) - 3.659 € (4.574 USD),it's a working rifle which competes with the Beretta, Chapuis, etc. line but can't pretend to play in the same ligue as the FN CCS 25, Ferlach or best quality English rifles, but then it costs 1/3 of the latter's price...

For more info, have a look at :
http://www.browning-int.com/intro.html
*Browning - double rifles - CCS 525
*Custom shop- double rifles - CCS 25.

--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

Edited by CptCurl (23/01/10 11:08 PM)

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Schauckis
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: André]
      #129780 - 17/03/09 04:49 AM

Ah-ha.
This explains a LOT! Thank you very much indeed for the information.
I didn't know about the 2 grades, as I have never come across the CCS 25 - only the 525!
I'm afraid the CCS 25 is out of my league.

I daresay the Custom Shop page was well hidden.

I'll have to keep looking for info on the CCS 525. Few do seem to have experience with it.

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

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livinus
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: Schauckis]
      #129939 - 18/03/09 08:20 PM

Double O/ rifles are very much "a la mode" in Europe the last 20 years for driven game hunting.Most O/U shotgun makers got into the game by adapting shotgun receivers to 8mm-9,3mm barrels and most of these products give decent quality for the money (about 2500-3000 euro). And then there are the top makers who have been building O/U rifles since generations: Browning(CCS25) and other makers in Belgium, Krieghof (Teck and Ulm), Beretta (top models),Merkel, the Ferlach makers...
These rifles offer better quality for (a lot )more money. You say you are looking for a 375 Magnum, and for a good, reliable rifle in this caliber you have no choise but to look at the top makers. It is no coincidence that the new makers offer nothing bigger than 9,3. Big bore O/U's (and SxS for that matter)demand great knowledge and experience. Big bore O/U's have been made by most top makers and they are (in my opinion) every bit as good as big bores of the SxS configuration.I do prefer SxS's for their looks, but O/U's are by nature very strong and handle verey nicely. Some say they are (because of a bigger angle to open) to slow for dangerous game, but I think otherwise. I can detect no real difference between my Krieghof 458 and my Westley Richerds 450NE. If this were so, we would have to rule out the following rifles for use against dangerous game: rifles with no ejectors; those with outside hammers, those with Jones underlever...
Greetings,
Livinus

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: livinus]
      #129953 - 18/03/09 11:48 PM

Andre, can you tell me which Browning action my .470 is on ? There are three pics below which aren't
much help but I will try and get a couple more tommorow, the rifle came out of Dumoulin custon shop,
thx, Mike


http://s222.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/mlb6363/470%20Dumoulin/?albumview=slideshow

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livinus
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #130022 - 19/03/09 09:10 PM

I have trouble opening your pictures, so the following is something of a guess.As far as I know, Browning never sold separate double rifle B25 receivers (those with the solid bottom and thicker side-walls) to gunmakers. Because of the fame of the B25 Superposé , B25 receivers taken from shotguns were always popular in Belgium for building double rifles. I know that Pletsers, a Belgium custom maker and specialist of making big bores on Browning receivers, prefers to use receivers taken from B25 trap-guns. Apparantly these receivers were machined with extra-thick side-walls and thus stronger than B25 receivers used on game guns. Possibly Dumoulin follows this practise also.
Greetings,
Livinus

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4seventy
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #130023 - 19/03/09 09:11 PM

Mike,
That Dumoulin .470 is sweeeet!
Would love to see some more photos if you get a chance.
Thanks

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André
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #130027 - 19/03/09 10:17 PM

Livinus may be on the right track as the action comes most probably from a shotgun. If you could supply a pic of the interior of the receiver (like the one I posted), we could be more ascertive. Another thing you can check inside the receiver is whether the bottom has been hollowed out or not. Then we would know if your action was meant to be shotgun or rifle. I tend to suspect the former origin as, indeed, FN never supplied its actions alone. If built on a shotgun, it won't be as strong as an original rifle but you still have a good rifle, considering that you won't be shooting it that intensively. Also, let's remember that J. Browning's B25 has long been -and arguably still is- one of the strongest O/U actions ever devised. So, maybe the extra-strength built in FN's O/U rifles is more an insurance than a necessity.

--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

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Nighthawk
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: André]
      #130647 - 27/03/09 07:03 PM

The CCS 525 (or the earlier models 325 and 425) rifles are also marketed under the Miroku brand.

Here are some (bad) pictures of mine:











Edited by CptCurl (23/01/10 11:09 PM)

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André
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: Nighthawk]
      #130666 - 27/03/09 11:48 PM

Sorry, but that's not a CCS 25. It's a 20 ga (Miroku) shotgun fitted with rifled barrels. The CCS 25 has a forward sliding (not detachable) forend like the B25 shotgun from which it derives. I don't believe this one to be an original FN-Browning rifle but suspect an example of the many transformed 20 ga. shotguns. To verify, you could check the typical rifle action machining (not hollowed out bottom, gas screws, wall thickness, etc.) as I posted above.

Also, an original FN built double rifle comes with a authenticity certificate naming the engraver and craftsmen who built the gun. Here's mine, for instance :


--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

Edited by CptCurl (23/01/10 11:10 PM)

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JPK
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: André]
      #130884 - 30/03/09 12:40 PM

I have a question regarding the Browning two barrel set combination rifles/shotguns available some time ago and called "Continental" or something like that. The shotgun barrels were 20ga and rifle barrels that I have seen were 30-06, 9.3x74r, 270w and I think 308 as well. They are marked made in Belgium, as I recall.

What action would these have been made on?

Last I looked, second hand prices were in the $5,500 range, that was maybe four or five years ago.

JPK

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André
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: JPK]
      #130910 - 30/03/09 08:06 PM

The original "Continental" combos as sold 2-3 decades ago were true CCS 25's and destined for export to the U.S. (.30-06 and .270 double rifles are very unusual in Europe*). These were later succeeded by less expensive rifles built on B325, 425, 525 receivers as told above.

*Fact is, these chamberings do depreciate the value of second hand rifles (classic double rifle calibers for Europe are 9,3x74R, 8x57JRS, 7x65R). However, he who can live with it can acquire an original CCS25 for a fraction of its regular value.

--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

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JPK
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: André]
      #130961 - 31/03/09 09:44 AM

Thanks, yes it is the combos from a a couple of decades ago that I was thinking of.

I don't think the 30-06 or 270 chamberings would hurt values for these rifles in the US.

I passed on one maybe two years ago and have been regretting it.

JPK

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Nighthawk
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: André]
      #131931 - 10/04/09 12:23 AM

Quote:

Sorry, but that's not a CCS 25. It's a 20 ga (Miroku) shotgun fitted with rifled barrels. The CCS 25 has a forward sliding (not detachable) forend like the B25 shotgun from which it derives. I don't believe this one to be an original FN-Browning rifle but suspect an example of the many transformed 20 ga. shotguns. To verify, you could check the typical rifle action machining (not hollowed out bottom, gas screws, wall thickness, etc.) as I posted above.

Also, an original FN built double rifle comes with a authenticity certificate naming the engraver and craftsmen who built the gun. Here's mine, for instance :




André, off course it's not a CCS25. It is indeed a Miroku.

Edited by CptCurl (23/01/10 11:10 PM)

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vigillinus
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: Nighthawk]
      #133946 - 30/04/09 09:32 AM

Have alwayws liked the looks and handling of the Continentals but have worries about extraction and ejection of the relatively high pressured rimless cases in .270 and .30'06 .... have there every been any problems in this regard? I have not owned many double rifles but recall such difficulties with a 1950s Westley Richards .375 H&H (belted magnum) and, on the contrary, no problems whatever with a much older WR .30'06. But the various WRs seems to grab a larger chunk of the extractor groove than the various Euro rifles including Browning.

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André
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: vigillinus]
      #134100 - 01/05/09 06:50 PM

I'm not aware of extraction problems with rimless cases in the CCS25 but, honestly, I prefer to stick to rimmed cases and lower pressure rounds in a double rifle.

--------------------
André
---------------------------------
3 shots do not make a group, they show a point of aim or impact.
5 shots are a group.

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rnb
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: André]
      #151205 - 20/01/10 10:32 AM

I have just bought one of the 30/06 20 ga sets from the 1978 where did you have the rib added I want to have this done. Thanks RNB

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Paul
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: André]
      #151272 - 21/01/10 01:08 AM

Quote:

1. the real McCoy, called the CCS 25 and based on a specially machined 20 ga action forging. The bottom of the action is not hollowed out and the side walls are much thicker than on a shotgun. To illustrate my point, here's a pic of a B25 12 ga receiver (L) compared to a 20 ga sized rifle receiver (R) :




Andre, I can see differences in those actions but not all the ones you mention. The forward sidewalls of the 'Real McCoy' actually look thinner than on the other other one.

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rnb
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: Paul]
      #151323 - 21/01/10 10:13 AM

My new Browning arrived and the workmanship is outstanding I call new England guns to have a rib installed so I can use a scope its everything I could ask for the test target is just over one inch at 100 meters with 150 gr 30-06 can't ask for more. thanks for the information without it I would have passed on this great gun and always wanted 5.9 lb 20ga to hunt with but never spent the money and yest I know that its only 30-06 but I have a new Heym 375 H&H I bought last month I got everything covered, well till I want another one that is.

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hoser
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Re: Advice Regarding O/U Double Rifles [Re: rnb]
      #151557 - 23/01/10 12:41 PM

Are O/U rifles harder to regulate with ammo than SxS? Do O/U's offer quicker recovery due to straight back and/or up recoil vs SxS? Any other general pros and cons between the two choices?

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