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Oleg
.224 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
11x65R a forgotten cartridge
      #127848 - 23/02/09 11:37 PM

Dear all,
I’d like to represent the cartridge, which may be called as 11x65R forgotten (the epithet is my).

I know that sometimes barrels for 11.15x65R LK were simply marked as “11x65R”, but this is another case. This cartridge is not 11.15x65R LK or 11.15x65 Collath. Also it is not a rimmed version of 10.75x68 Mauser, or 10.75x65R Grundig. The dimensions are similar, but differ and the caliber of barrel differ too. Brass is straight, slightly conical (cone is about 1:100).

It is possible to put rimless 10.75x68 Mauser cartridge in the chamber and it is possible to shot, so even rimless (!) brass arrange good in the chamber, but bullet diameter of mauser’s bullet is smaller than fields diameter of barrel.



Dimensions:
Base diameter 12.55 (0.494)
Rimm diameter 13.85 (0.545)
Neck diameter 11.80 (0.465)

Chambercast:



I have not this cartridge in my collection. But I have a gun! It is old German drilling.
Barrel rifling is very interesting. It is octagonal with narrow fields in the angles of octagon.
Dimentions:
Fields 10.75 (0.423) or a little more.
Groves (sides) 10.82 (0.426)
Angles 11.05 (0.435) or a little less.



The rimm of 38 Special brass is a good choice for slugging my barrel.



The barrel was marked at the beginning as 67/49 gauge (in old German tradition), but later, when the gun was repaired (it has “R under the crown” mark), the calibre marking was re-stamped as 10.7 mm.


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WBD
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Reged: 19/02/09
Posts: 5
Loc: NZ
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: Oleg]
      #127881 - 24/02/09 05:36 AM

Oleg, you say that it is not a 10.75x65R Gründig but from the dimensions and shape, it is the most likely cartridge. What happens when you try and insert one of your 10.75x65R into the chamber ?

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: WBD]
      #127882 - 24/02/09 06:03 AM

Hi!

When you write 10,75x65r LK, do you mean the 10,75x65r lancaster?

btw, is the rim realy that much larger the the base, it doesent look as it on the casting.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

Edited by 450_366 (24/02/09 06:10 AM)


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rlang
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Reged: 22/01/09
Posts: 20
Loc: ny
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: Oleg]
      #127900 - 24/02/09 11:22 AM

Hello Oleg
this is in regards to the 10.75x65 r collath.

I found the data on the chmaber cast I had done a few years ago.
base .482"
neck .471"
bore diameter .433"
Their is a slight taper at the neck to accept the bullets when I run my cases throught the reforming die.

I am using 44 caliber hard cast bullets in my reloads.
When I had the chamber cast done I sent the cast to Huntingtons and they made up a set of dies for the chamber. They told me it was a 10.75x65r collath by my chamber cast.
I tried the load in handloaders digest and the amount of powder listed was to little to properly work for the cartridge. I since have slowly worked up to a load I feel is good for the gun.
thanks
ralph


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Oleg
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: rlang]
      #127946 - 24/02/09 09:50 PM

Dear WBD,
Yes, the brass (but not the bullet) of 10.75x65R Grundig is the most likely. It is possible to put it into the chamber (see photo). This brass would be the best choice to use it for reloading and shooting, but after fireforming.



The diameter of the bullet in Grundig cartridge is too small for my barrel (10.695 mm 0.421). Also the precise 10.75 (0.423) diameter will be too small. I need the bullet with diameter a little less than 11.05 (0.435). May be 0.434 or 0.433 – close to 11 mm.


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Oleg
.224 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: Oleg]
      #127947 - 24/02/09 09:52 PM

Dear Andreas (450 366),
We are neighbours. You are in Sweden. I am in Latvia.
Sorry but I never wrote about “10.75x65r LK”. Such cartridge is unknown for me. May be the small mistake took place. I have mentioned 11.15x65R LK as Lancaster. Also sometimes called as Express or Lancaster Express or Shtutzen in German literature.

About comparing the base and the rimm diameters on the casting. The base diameter of camber is a little bigger now, than it was at the beginning. It is the work of my hands and my mistake. Long ago I tried to modify the chamber, but the reamer was too blunt and I stopped the action. Only the part about 12 mm length was a little increased in diameter. In my previous post I have use the correct dimention, but not the increased.

Also before that operation it was possible to put 10.75x68 Mauser in my chamber.


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Oleg
.224 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: Oleg]
      #127948 - 24/02/09 09:54 PM

Dear Ralph (rland)

I suppose, that You have read the above post of WBD about Grundig and Collat. Now I am sure that Your cartridge is not the 10.75x65R Collath and more than that, it may not be the 10.75x65R Grundig too. I begin to suspect that may be You have the same cartridge as me (11x65R Forgotten).

Fist of all about measurement. The dimentions of formed brass are a little less than chamber. Depends on casting material the dimentions of chambercast may a little differ from the chamber or fired brass (also less). So all the measurements are not the absolute. The chambers in old guns also may differ. Because they were produced many years ago by different gunmakers using different tools and usually different technical standards of quality. The same cartridges, but from different producers also may have a little different dimentions (especially old cartridges).

Let’s compare (in inch).
Your base diameter is 0.482, but my 0.494 (not less)
Your neck diameter is 0.471, but my 0.465 (or may be 467)
Not so big difference. I suppose that it may be not significant.

I think that the bore measurement is more important.
You write about bore diameter 0.433.
Please precise it. Is it land (minimal) or grove (maximal) diameter?
If it is maximal so You have really the same caliber as me.

Are Your bore shape more or less similar to my?
Are the land width and grove width equal?
How many lands 6 or 8?
Right or left?


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rlang
.224 member


Reged: 22/01/09
Posts: 20
Loc: ny
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: Oleg]
      #128005 - 25/02/09 11:36 AM

Hello Oleg

I am precise that the bore diameter is .433.
This is the grove diameter.
I still have the slug I pushed through the bore.
My bore shape is not the same as yours.
the rifling is quite thin, not like what you find on todays type of guns.
I only own one other drilling a Franz Kettner with similar type of rifling.
I have not counted the lands.I believe it has right hand rifling.
I have found a company here who casts custom bullets as large as .432 diameter.
The prices of the bullets do not break the bank.
I can give you their webiste if you are interested.
thanks
Ralph


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Oleg
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: rlang]
      #128051 - 26/02/09 01:28 AM

Dear Ralph,
At the every step I became more and more sure, that we have barrels of the same caliber and for the same cartridge.

I wanted to illustrate my post with a couple of photos, but my image-hosting are not working today. I will do it as soon as possible

I have asked you about rifling shape and number of lands because sometimes it is possible to find left and odd rifling (so called Henry). It is very rare in drillings.

A am planning make the experiments with casts bullets too.
Are You speaking about this website?
http://www.ranchdogmolds.com/

Double rifle drilling is a very rear weapon. Such gun is very interesting ever.
Who may be the gunmaker of Your gun?
How do You think? When it may be produced?.

Sorry for my English. I know that my grammar is terrible. Is it more or less understandable? If I will wrote something too difficult for understanding, please don’t hasetate and ask a questions.
Sincerely Yours
Oleg


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Oleg
.224 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: Oleg]
      #128149 - 26/02/09 08:13 PM

Dear Ralph,
Depends of rifling shape the real diameter may a little differ due do different tools using for rifling. A little difference may take place also due to measurement method. For example. When I made slugging by soft lead and push it trough the whole barrel length - I had got 11.03 mm (0.434). When I used another method for slugging the result was a little, but different. I have used the rimm of brass of 38 Sp. (rimm diameter was 11.10 mm). I have pushed it into the barrel for about 10 inches, but then pushed it back. The result was the 11.05 mm (0.435). The lead is soft, but the brass is hard.



We have to take in account my shape of rifling. My maximal diameter not corresponds to the grove diameter in classical typical rifling. My rifling is octagonal, but classical is round.



I used handmade jacketed SP bullets. It was very good for moose.



I made experiments with .44 cal (0.429) jacketed handgun bullets (Sierra). I think that it’s diameter is a little small for me.



I will try to find the 425 Westley Richards bullets (.435 dia) and to decrease a little it’s diameter. I suppose that the best diameter of jacketed bullet for me will be – 0.4325-0.4335 (somewhere very close to 11 mm), but for the lead bullet it will be about 0.433-0.437 (11.0 - 11.1 mm)

Also I suppose, if Your barrel is 0.43300 diameter (as assumption). The best jacketed diameter for You will be somewhere between 0.4325 and 0.4329.

Here You will find an interesting article about using of led bullets in Marlins. The table about diameters of bullets in the end of second link is especially interesting.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/19
http://www.beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28


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rlang
.224 member


Reged: 22/01/09
Posts: 20
Loc: ny
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: Oleg]
      #128777 - 05/03/09 11:29 AM

Hello Oleg
I see you know about the website I a\was going to tell you about.
I have bought bullets from Beartoothbullets sized .432.
they worked fine.

In regards to mine DRD.
It is made by Nagel and Menz.
Probably pre WWI I was told by Krieghoff.

When I can I will post some pictures.
]
If you like I can share my reloading data so far and results.
thks
ralph


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Oleg
.224 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: rlang]
      #128894 - 06/03/09 09:39 PM

Dear Ralph,
My drilling is produced (using main gunparts of Heym) by “J.C.Stahl & Sohn in Hamburg”. I have not hear about any other gun direct from J.S. Stahl.






Later (in 1920-1930-ties) that firm became “Stahl & Berger in Hamburg” and used such trade marks as “SBH” or “StBH” also “Bürgermeister” or “BüMa” or “Bürger SBH Meister”. They have two stores in Hamburg and were a dealer of some famous German gunmakers. They also made guns by himself. They are not a well known gunmaker as for example Krieghoffe (also in Humburg), but information about some guns can be found on the net. For example.

http://www.scotarms.co.uk/catalogues/666.htm
2-nd item from the top

http://www.feine-jagdwaffen.de/cms/index.php?id=8,0,0,1,0,0
10-th item from the top

http://www.artfact.com/auction-lot/gebru...59-c-9w3mpt2vbl

I suppose that my drilling was produced in the beginning of XX century, before WWI, but later, once before WWII was repared (“R under the crown” stamp) by the same firm (SBH stamp on the base for riflescope was added)

In the next page You will find some words as about “Stahl & Berger in Hamburg” as “Nagel & Menz”

http://www.feine-jagdwaffen.de/cms/index.php

Interesting rifle from “Nagel & Menz”

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976988820/Gun.../NAGEL_MENZ.htm

Current address (possibly heirs)

http://web2.cylex.de/firma-home/nagel-_-menz-2848735.html


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Oleg
.224 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: Oleg]
      #128895 - 06/03/09 09:41 PM

Dear Ralph,

Thank You very much. Reloading data and every other information will be very useful.
I have a good idea.
Please open
http://www.ch4d.com
From the left menu choose
Reloading dies – Reloading die list
You will find some interesting from the listed cartridges
Please look carefully. There are

10.75x65 R Collath
10x75x70 R Collath
11x 65 R (Look !!!)
11.15 Collath L.G.
11.15x52 LK Express
11.15x64 R
11.15x65 R LK Express

So, the 11x65R as cartridge is differ as from 11.15x65R LK Express as from 10.75x65R Collath (may be more correct - Grundig) and also differ from other cartridges in 11mm-aroud group.

I know how we can get important (and significant !) information.
As I understood, Your location “ny” means NY. So You live in USA.
Please, would You like to sent a message to “ch4d.com” and ask him about dimentions of full length die for 11x65R (also may be about 11.15x64R). Really we need only two dimentions “Base” and “Neck” diameters.

If I will do it by myself, I am afraide of they will see my message from another corner of the world written by my poor English and will ignore it. You can carefully describe the situation and formulate questions more correctly than me. If necessary You also may call and to talk.

Would You like to do it.
Sincerely Yours
Oleg


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rlang
.224 member


Reged: 22/01/09
Posts: 20
Loc: ny
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: Oleg]
      #129413 - 13/03/09 10:59 AM

hELLO oLEG

I sent an e-mail out to CH4D.
waiting on a response.

In regards to my load data, this is what I ahve worked out so far.

320 grns LBT bullets (.430 dia)
57 grains reloader 7
velocity 2055 FPS.

this is the load I have so far worked up to.
It gives good ignition in the case, and the case expands properly to fill the chamber.

I have a question for you. How does one post pictures???
thks
Ralph


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Oleg
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Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: rlang]
      #129447 - 13/03/09 08:00 PM

Dear Ralph,
I hope and believe we will receive useful information from CH4D.
Thank You very much.

Your lading data is very interesting. Not so light bullet, good amount of relatively fast powder and excellent velocity, and all that for lead bullet. It is very good. For that velocity the lead have not to be soft. You need hard casts alloy. The expacivity of hard cast bullet will be low. May be it would be interesting for you to make experiments with 300 grain 0.429 handgun (shotgun) jacketed SP bullet.

Many years ago, when we (I and my father) bought this drilling, we also began our empirical experiments with lead bullets, but results were not satisfactory. My construction of bullet mould was not so good. I decided to use jacketed bullets. It was impossible to find any reloading components. The brass were made by lathe. So it’s capacity was limited due to cylindrical interior shape. I used 3.75 grams (approx 58 grein) of powder and it was the maximum possible capacity. I used powder from rifle cartridges (Russian 7.62x54R). It was BT powder. It is more or less similar to Vihtavuory N140 or Reloader 15. My semi-jacketed bullets was about 21 g. (325 grain). I don’t know the velocity. I was also limited in pressure due to soft berdan primers (for smoothbore cartridges).

Now due to some political and economical changes much new became possible. A lot of different information on the web also may to help. At last I began to understand what the gun I have and what the cartridge I need.

Now I decide to renew cartridge system to more modern using not handmade, but real reloading equipment, brass, bullets. Also primers and powder are possible to buy now. I began experiments with brass fireforming. I will use 30R Blaser (RWS) brass. (Bertram and it’s Grundig is too far from me).


About pictures. For great regret this forum does not allow to attach picture direct to the post in forum. You may only attach a link (or so called hot-link) with address where You picture are keeping (so called image-hosting). There are a lot image-hosting sites on the web. Partially they are freeware, but partially not.
http://photobucket.com/
Is very popular in our forum.
I use
http://www.largeimagehost.com/
It is not the best and it’s interface is not the friendliest, but hot-links are free and without limitation on size.

You simply have to find and chose the appropriate web-hosting-site, to registry account and upload Your images to Your album at the chosen web-site. Web-site will generate special codes (simple html-link or BB-code for hot-link). You will copy and past the string of codes (also so called URL-string) from Your album at the hosting web-site into Your post. If it will be a hot-link the image will be visible in the post (as my). If it will be a simple link it will be necessary to click on the link to open the image.

If You want to send images not to the forum, but direct to me You may use my e-mail:
S-107565@inbox.lv

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=51896&an=0&page=12#Post51896

Here You can see one example else (at our forum in 2006 year). This old drilling cannot be for 444 Marlin. But it is possible to put 444 Marlin brass in chamber. If it is possible to use handgun 429 bulllets for shooting (as written) so that drilling can not be for 11.15x65R (429-Diameter is too big for 10.75 and too small for 11.15). I suppose it is drilling for our cartridge.

Sincerely Yours
Oleg


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rlang
.224 member


Reged: 22/01/09
Posts: 20
Loc: ny
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: Oleg]
      #129508 - 14/03/09 07:54 AM

Hello Oleg
I sent you an e-mail I received today from CH4D.
In regards to my load data the bullets I am using are hard cast bullets with gas checks, they are by Cast performance bullet company.
I like to use these type of bullets because they are easier on the old barrels, than using modern jacketed pistol bullets.

thks
ralph


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Oleg
.224 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: rlang]
      #129736 - 16/03/09 07:58 PM

Dear Ralph,
I received Your e-mail. Thank You very much.
As I understood the result. The dies listed at CH4D for 11x65R and 11.15x65R LK Express really are the dies for the same cartridge 11.15x65R LK Express, but with variation in dimensions in 0.002 inch. Mentioned dies were produced as custom dies for different real customers and then included in the general list of dies. I suppose that it’s 11.15x64R is also from the same family.

I am sure if to search and carefully examine old german catalogues it is possible to find direct or indirect information about our cartridge. For example I know about cartridges 11.15x65R only with lead bullet. I have not seen any picture of that cartridge with jacketed bullet. In our forum we can find the page (posted by Lancaster) from old Tesko catalog with the table of different cartridges with JACKETED bullets, including 11 x 65mm (!) caliber. (”Kugelpatronen mit unserem Kupfernickelmantelgescose “Tesco…”)
The table:

The link:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=107196&an=0&page=1#Post107196

As I know, the stamping-marking system was more or less standatised after WWI. So it is very difficult to understand correctly the marking on old pre WWI guns. But I suppose that the caliber marking have obligatory to be on the barrels. The interior (land) (!) diameter was marked as tradition in Germany. It may be in “mm”, but old German guns were marked in another style. The system of gauge numbers was used for barrel diameters. This was largest plug gauge diameter that would fit in the bore.
My barrel was primarily marked as 67/49 (later restamped as 10.7 mm). I know, that barrels for 11.15 mm were marked by “bigger” gauge number as 62/78. Here it is example from our forum.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=70291&an=0&page=0#Post70291

You will see as “PATR.11,15-65.4.SP.17.7 BL” as “62/78”.
I suppose that “4.S.P.17.7BL.” mean 4 Swartz Pulver 17.7. Blei Geschosse (Black powder, Lead bullet)

Please try to look carefully Your barrel and try to find the caliber mark. It may be 67/49 or 67,49 or simply 67 49 (by space). Of course it may be in “mm” too.

I will send e-mail too.

Oleg


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rlang
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Reged: 22/01/09
Posts: 20
Loc: ny
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: Oleg]
      #129824 - 17/03/09 12:00 PM

Hello Oleg

My barrel flats are marked 67/49.
no marks onthe barrels to load information.
the rifle barrels are not marked nitro proofed.
But the shotgun barrel has the nitro proof stamps on it.
I do not know why the rifle barrels are not marked??
This was my question originally on the forum if this caliber was a blackpowder load or a nitro load originally. Do you know what these loads started out as??
I know the 9.3x72r started as blackpowder and later was loaded nitro.
thks
ralph


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WBD
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Reged: 19/02/09
Posts: 5
Loc: NZ
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: rlang]
      #130132 - 21/03/09 03:03 AM

Oleg, that 11x65R listed by Collath uses the same case as the 11.15x65R LK.

I have studied European Sporting cartridges for over 15 years and have written two books on the subject. I still cannot find any reference to a different "11x65R" as you require.

Sorry... Brad


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Oleg
.224 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: 11x65R a forgotten cartridge [Re: WBD]
      #130295 - 23/03/09 09:56 PM

Dear Ralph,
Sorry for delay.
In the beginning of the XX century weapon and cartridges were developed very fast. Other machine-technologies developed too. The development was also complicated due to introduction of smokeless powders. Smokeless powder was introduced by different ways. It was possible to put a small quantity of nitro powder into blackpowder cartridge. In this case the nitro-cartridge will be almost the same powerful as blackpowder cartridge. It is better try to make a new cartridge for nitropowder. It will be much more powerful. That new cartridges may be created in modern style in bottleneck brass and smaller caliber or it may be old fashioned with straight brass and the same caliber. I suppose, all that tendencies developed parallel, but during relatively shot period of time (some years).

I suppose, that our cartridge (11x65R Forgotten) was created in that short period and produced for a short time about 10 years, not longer. I suppose, it has not the blackpowder predecessor with the same caliber and dimensions. In opposite case that cartridge life would be longer and it would not been forgotten.

Ralph, You mentioned a very good example. It is cartridge 9.3x72R also called as “360 Express BlackPowder & Nitro”. Let’s compare it with the next generation cartridge 9.3x74R. It is an example when newly created nitro-cartridge has similar, but different dimensions. We can find a specific logical construction in that difference.

What is the main? The main is safety! What is dangerous? It is dangerous to put nitro-cartridge into the blackpowder weapon (chamber). What is the easiest way to prevent it? The easiest way is to create nitro-cartridge with a little bigger brass and smaller caliber of bullet. The cartridge 9,3x74R have dimentions similar as 9,3x72R, but the base diameter of brass is bigger, brass is longer and the bullet diameter is smaller.

Base – 11.83---10.76
Length – 74.09--- 71.76
Caliber- 9.25--- 9.51
All data is in “mm” from www.municion.org

Taken in account the mentioned logic, I suppose that the blackpowder predecessor of 11x65R Forgotten (our cartridge) was 11.15x65R LK. Brass became a little thicker, but bullet became jacketed and a little slimmer. The diameter of lead bullet in 11.15x65R LK is 11.31mm (municion.org).

Ralph, it is very good, that Your barrels have the same caliber mark as my 67/49. I have already wrote in my previous post about “bigger” caliber marks 62/78 on the barrel for 11.15x65 cartridge. The example (posted by kcordell) we can see at our forum. It is Sauer&Sohn drilling.
It is another photo with better quality. See second photo from the top.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=102759&an=0&page=1#Post102759

I have new information too. One my pen friend from other forum from Russia has old Collath drilling. His drilling marked as 11mm x 65 and at the same time have gauge marking 67,49 (as my and Your drillings). See photo. It not very god, but may be zoomed, click please.



What does it mean? It mean that cartridges 11.15x65R LK and 11x65R Forgotten is not the same cartridges (sorry, as a first step of evidence - not cartridges with the same diameter of bullet). The second step is chambers in our drillings.

Sincerely Yours
Oleg

P.S. I will try to write something for WBD too, but a little later.


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Oleg
.224 member


Reged: 12/12/08
Posts: 26
Loc: Latvia, Riga
Re: WBD [Re: Oleg]
      #130306 - 24/03/09 01:29 AM

Dear Brad (WBD),

First of all, Thank You very much for Your participation in our discussion. It does credit for us. From the first words I understood that You know the problem very well and Your competence in history of cartridges is doubtless. We need Your opinion. I am sure You have seen all accessible oldtime catalogues and literature and of course You held much different cartridges in Your hands. I am sure nobody but You can solve this problem. Trust me, I respect Your knowledge and Your experience.

I am not a researcher historian. I am not a serious cartridge collector. I am a hunter. I have the old gun and I simply want to know, what gun I have and what cartridge I need. During some years I try to search possible information and to understand the number of facts been found.

My gun, Ralph’s gun and couple of other pieces of iron are also the facts. It is iron facts. Letters and numbers stamped on the iron and other characteristics really are the primary material. Slugs pushed through the barrel and chambercasts are also the primary material. It may be more important than references in literature. Really we have the absence of known references, but an absence is not the evidence). What is reference in literature? It is only the interpretation of primary material. We have found a new primary material and we need it’s competent interpretation.

I hope You have read my previous post and saw the image of old collath marking. Sorry for my English. In short I wanted to say that exist guns (drillings) with barrels for bullet 11 mm of diameter. It has chambers with diameter of entrance about 12.5mm. If the guns exist, so it has obligatory to exist appropriate cartridges too. It is not a rare but known cartridges as 10.75x65R Grundig or 11.15x65R LK (the last with lead bullet 11.31 dia).

That barrels usually marked by gauge 67/49. Barrels for the cartridge 11.15x65R LK marked by other (bigger) gauge 62/78. It is an example posted by kcordell at our forum.

What known similar Rimmed cartridge can contain a bullet of 11 mm (!) diameter?

What have to be the real diameter of jacketed bullet in cartridges from old Collath-Tesco catalog listed as 11 x 65. Cartridges in that catalog are listed as 8.15 or 8.1 or 9.3 and 11 but not 11.15?



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