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xausa
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Jeffery .600 NE
      #125483 - 31/01/09 10:30 AM

My copy of the Jeffrey"s 1930 catalog contains an illustration of the Jeffery .600 Nitro Express rifle with the following remarks:

" We recommend the Under Lever Push forward Snap Action, as shown in this illustration, for all powerful Smokeless Powder Rifles. It is a far stronger Mechanism than the Top Lever, and it admits of nearly ten times as much pressure being applied to withdraw the bolt as can be got from a Top Lever The cocking, opening of the Breech, and ejecting of the fired cartridge cases are much easier with the Under Lever Snap Action than with the Top Lever."

Can anyone explain why this action should be stronger and much easier to operate than the conventional top lever model? Are the locks cocked by opening the barrels, or by the action of the underlever, before the barrels are opened?

I directed this question to Norbert Klups, author of "The Double Rifle", but he had no explanation to offer.


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: xausa]
      #125488 - 31/01/09 10:54 AM


Mechanically, I can see no reason for the above recommendation. The under-lever; a sliding lifter bar located in front of the trigger guard, was retained until 1882, when it was replaced with the top lever. It seems to be a very misplaced advertisement as late as the 1930's. It may have been competitive marketing that drove the comments to avoid the top lever during the transition phase. A maker of the under lever snap action would want to discredit the top lever mechanism. It is neither stronger nor easier to operate than a top lever. The metals may not have been as strong then and quite possibly they saw some breakage during the camming action of the lever.

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500Nitro
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #125491 - 31/01/09 11:00 AM

Quote:


Mechanically, I can see no reason for the above recommendation. The under-lever; a sliding lifter bar located in front of the trigger guard, was retained until 1882, when it was replaced with the top lever. It seems to be a very misplaced advertisement as late as the 1930's. It may have been competitive marketing that drove the comments to avoid the top lever during the transition phase. A maker of the under lever snap action would want to discredit the top lever mechanism. It is neither stronger nor easier to operate than a top lever. The metals may not have been as strong then and quite possibly they saw some breakage during the camming action of the lever.





Except Jeffrey still made the 600 Nitro with the Under Lever Push forward Snap Action well after 1882.

Edited by 500Nitro (31/01/09 11:01 AM)


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: 500Nitro]
      #125495 - 31/01/09 11:10 AM



True, which leads me to believe it was competitive marketing and nothing to do with mechanical advantage. The top lever won out so I guess the best design stood the test of time.

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500Nitro
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #125502 - 31/01/09 11:55 AM


I think when it came to the 600 Nitro, the Snap Action was a very good design.

But yes, as you say, it could have been marketing.


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mickey
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #125503 - 31/01/09 11:56 AM

While the lockup is the same as a top lever the snap action puts more force into opening the rifle. A top lever just unlocks the action and the barrel weight and hand on the barrels opens it. The under lever assists in opening.

I think.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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4seventy
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #125513 - 31/01/09 01:14 PM

Regarding withdrawing the underbolting, I think the snap action underlever would provide greater mechanical advantage than the top lever system.
Add to this that the hand is used with the snap action lever as opposed to the thumb with the top lever.
If the gun was "locked up", ie difficult to withdraw the bolting due to heat or whatever causing higher than normal pressures, I think the snap action under lever operated by the hand, would provide better leverage and therefore be easier to move than the top lever pushed by the thumb.
Remember that the 600NE produces very high thrust against the breech compared to other cartridges meant for use in double rifles.
This is why Jeffery has gone to what they felt is a better action design for the 600 NE to be used in high temperature countries.

Some snap action designs (as well as operating the bolting) use the underlever to cock/recock the locks.
I've never had the chance to examine a Jeffery 600NE snap action so I don't know whether the cocking is done by the lever or by the barrels.
Curl will probably know the answer to that I hope.


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: 4seventy]
      #125520 - 31/01/09 02:47 PM


I have never been a fan of the self-opening action as it causes to much wear and tear on the hook, knuckle, and hinge pin. I'm not sure if the gun described is a self-opener, but the description seems to imply that it was.

I believe the action described above was cocked by the weight of the barrels as they were opened and that is certainly the most efficient lever. The force of the self opening action supposedly cocked the hammers easier than relying fully on the hand opening the action.

It's hard to imagine another form of cocking mechanism being used as late as the 1930's, except for some of the odd American built guns (and there were some odd ones), other than the Anson & Deeley system, by any of the major makers.

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (31/01/09 10:03 PM)


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4seventy
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: xausa]
      #125524 - 31/01/09 03:18 PM

Quote:

It is a far stronger Mechanism than the Top Lever, and it admits of nearly ten times as much pressure being applied to withdraw the bolt as can be got from a Top Lever




The above quote is the most important feature of the Jeffery snap action 600NE IMO.
Because the 600, (even when developing normal acceptable pressures) develops an extremely high thrust against the breech face, it can benefit from having an extremely strong system to withdraw the bolting, especially if pressure is higher than usual and causes some springing of the action.
I don't know if that particular action had any self or assisted opening.
If it did, I think that would have been a secondary feature, the primary feature was having a powerfull leverage over the underbolting.
A system with more leverage than what the top lever can provide.


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kamilaroi
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: 4seventy]
      #125530 - 31/01/09 06:09 PM

Re: Der Jaeger's post and a bit off topic.

I have a Frederick T Baker shotgun where the barrels are cocked sequentially by an eccentically cammed hingepin. (a bit like two lobes of a camshaft). Result is less effort and less wear on the mechanism. (and less bits to go wrong))

Edited by kamilaroi (31/01/09 08:59 PM)


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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: kamilaroi]
      #125548 - 31/01/09 10:15 PM

Well,

I was wondering exactly what is a "Snap Action" and it turns out that is is really quite simple. In fact, all of our comments above could be true because there were so many variations of Snap Actions, i.e, under-lever, top-lever, side-lever. Various makers who staked their reputations on one verses another would, of course, wish to discredit competing systems. Technically, Snap Actions are being used today by everyone. Whether one is actually more advantageous than another may be more theoretical than actual, but it sure does make for some beautiful guns and rifles

snap-action
From: The Oxford Essential Dictionary of the U.S. Military | Date: 2001 | Copyright information
snap-action adj. denoting a gun whose hinged barrel is secured by a spring catch.


It still leaves a few questions regarding the original description, but this may at least answer one of them.

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (01/02/09 12:00 AM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: 4seventy]
      #125552 - 31/01/09 11:48 PM

Quote:

Some snap action designs (as well as operating the bolting) use the underlever to cock/recock the locks.
I've never had the chance to examine a Jeffery 600NE snap action so I don't know whether the cocking is done by the lever or by the barrels.
Curl will probably know the answer to that I hope.




Sorry, I don't know the answer in regard to the Jeffery design.

I do know that the Woodward Automatic was a fascinating underlever snap action design that does cock the locks by action of the underlever. It began with a fabulous exposed hammers design:





You can see a two position switch at bottom of action, in one position upon opening the operating lever, the hammers lift to half cock. In the second position the hammers will lift to firing position.

The design evloved into a lovely hammerless snap action; one of the earlier hammerless doubles:



In this configuration the tumblers (internal hammers) are lifted to full cock by the action of the lever. Obviously there were certain reservations about the safety of strolling around with a rifle at full cock, so Woodward incorporated a positive tumbler blocking safety mechanism and stressed safety in its advertising. Here's a copy of an advertisement appearing in 1882:



If you want to see my Woodward Automatic dissected with its guts hanging out, you can look HERE.

In a post above, somebody expressed surprise that underlever snap action rifles would be offered into the 1930's. Well guess what, they are offered today! Butch Searcy offers the underlever as an option with his rifles. I believe it is offered by English and Continental makers as well.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Der_Jaeger
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: CptCurl]
      #125553 - 01/02/09 12:07 AM

Quote:


In a post above, somebody expressed surprise that underlever snap action rifles would be offered into the 1930's. Well guess what, they are offered today! Butch Searcy offers the underlever as an option with his rifles. I believe it is offered by English and Continental makers as well.

Curl




Yes, that was me! I made the comment because I thought a snap action was something a bit different than what it turned out to be; merely a means to return the locking mechanism to it's locked position upon closing the breech. Indeed you are correct. I would love to have a new under-lever or a side lever and, if it can be made for me by Peter Hofer or Philipp Ollendorff, I will have reached Nirvana!

--------------------


Edited by Der_Jaeger (01/02/09 12:20 AM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #125554 - 01/02/09 12:52 AM

Yes they can all make an under lever or side lever. I just strolled around the internet for examples. Here is a photo from the Piotti website showing their current offering fit with a sidelever - a breath taking beauty!



Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #125556 - 01/02/09 01:09 AM

Quote:

Yes, that was me! I made the comment because I thought a snap action was something a bit different than what it turned out to be; merely a means to return the locking mechanism to it's locked position upon closing the breech.




That's right. The Piotti illustrated above locks with conventional Purdey bolts. Nothing whatsoever unusual about it's lockup.

And my Woodward - the same. Conventional Purdey bolts and a doll's head third fastener.



The only thing "odd" and elegant about the Woodward is the use of a roller bearing on the front of the Purdey bolting bar to ride against the rear barrel lump as the barrels pivot down! I don't know anybody else who did that detail.

Now back to the subject of strength. The Woodward cocks by action of the lever. That eliminates the need for any cuts through the action bars for cocking levers to work against the forend iron. Thus, the bars are solid, with the exception of cuts for the Purdey bolting slide. Now that does enhance action strength!



In some ways it harkens back to the amazing strength of the Jones underlever action which also has no cuts through the bars.



Again, I don't know whether the Jeffery .600NE used a similar underlever cocking design. If they did, that would explain the claim of enhanced action strength. It would be a valid claim. Hopefully someone can shed light on this question.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Anonymous
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: CptCurl]
      #125566 - 01/02/09 05:38 AM

The Jones underlever has imo the best lockup for longevity, but it is clumsy to use, hence the need for the evolution to the top lever.

I have never been a fan of a trigger guard snap lever, or the Jones on a double rifle. I do however like very much a side lever snap action design [on a shotgun ], in this design you just thumb break the action open [sexy]. BUT were talking double rifles here, which are designed to fire quickly, as such there is no substitute for a top lever.


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4seventy
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: CptCurl]
      #125580 - 01/02/09 08:09 AM

Curl,
Thanks for those beaut photos!

I'm interested to know the leverage ratio of your Woodward underlever.
An estimate could be made by measuring the travel of the underlever at its lower end from closed position to fully open, and then a measurement of how far the bolting has travelled between open and closed.
Those two measurments would provide an approximate lever ratio.
We could do the same measurement with a top lever system, to determine if the snap action underlever has a greater mechanical advantage over the top lever.


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4seventy
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: CptCurl]
      #125582 - 01/02/09 08:16 AM

Regarding the question as to whether the Jeffery underlever snap action uses the lever to cock the locks.....

Looking at the Jeffery 600NE action, it appears to have pins showing in the traditional positions for an action cocked by the barrels.
Three pins are visible, sear pin, tumbler pin and cocking lever pin.
What do you think?


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Marrakai
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: 4seventy]
      #125594 - 01/02/09 12:28 PM

In these two examples, you can clearly see standard cocking rods protruding from the knuckles:





I suspect all Jeffery .600NE doubles cock on the fall of the barrels. The barrel-group is quite heavy, compared with a shotgun where the fall of the barrels may need some assistance.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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Marrakai
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: Marrakai]
      #125595 - 01/02/09 12:41 PM

Here's another one I just found in my photo archives.

No idea who owns these .600s now, BTW, the images were 'borrowed' from 'For Sale' sites over the years in the interests of self-education!



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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1980E26
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: Marrakai]
      #125613 - 02/02/09 12:40 AM


The underlever does not cock the action. The fall of the barrels cock the locks.

Bike Rider


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nopride2
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #125657 - 02/02/09 10:56 AM

The underlever on my Rigby 12 ga. withdraws the Purdey bolt, lowers the rising bite, and cocks the hammers. To unbolt the action a 2 1/2 inch toplever swings about 45 degrees. The 3 1/2 inch underlever on the Rigby swings about 90 degrees. The underlever has a mechanical advantage over the top lever.

Dave


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peter
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: nopride2]
      #125678 - 02/02/09 09:41 PM

dave

please pictures, a rising bite underlever would be a sight for sore eye's.

peter


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grandveneur
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: xausa]
      #125687 - 03/02/09 12:35 AM

I have a reprint of this catalog 1912/13 with the same commentary! I think that is only marketing! A lot of 600NE Doubles, especially today, are made with top level systems!

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Huvius
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Re: Jeffery .600 NE [Re: CptCurl]
      #125702 - 03/02/09 02:41 AM

Curl,
Does the action of the underlever on the hammer gun push the hammers to half cock just before the barrels are allowed to drop? I see it doesn't have rebounding hammers.
This would be a great feature on a hammer gun obviating the need for rebounding hammers and at the same time bringing the hammers to "safe" half cock position.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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