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WCF
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Reged: 06/05/06
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Loc: georgia
REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge
      #117523 - 23/10/08 11:10 PM

I picked up the 45-70 Tuesday evening and was able to get off six shots yesterday before the weather shut me down. This is what has played out so far. Using the open sights at 25 yards with a six o'clock hold, the first two shots (R/L) were at eleven o'clock and touching. Shots 3 and 4, the right barrel was at nine o'clock two inches off the bullseye the left was touching the first two shots. Shots 5 and 6,identical to 3 and 4. Unsure what happened to right barrel. I was shooting from a standing rest. I was using factory Rem 300 gr JHP. I don't plan to make any adjustments unitl I have run a few more rounds through the gun and some different types of ammo. As far as the gun itself, I would say I got what I paid for. Some things I noticed with this brief firing session, the stock design does not (for me) lend it self to comfort or easy mounting. The pistol grip design reminds me of a stretched out semi-pistol grip and made it hard to hold, especically during recoil, and causing me to have to re-position my firing hand after firing. The recoil is stout even with these mild loads. The barrels heat up quickly and will flat burn your hands. When breeching the gun open the barrels rotate just far enough to allow for reloading, not a big deal with me but I would like for them to rotate a little more. The trigger pulls are terrible, I haven't gauged them but terrible is the only way to describe. Each trigger has enough travel to give you plenty of time to think about the gun going off. I tended to engage the rear trigger low without the crease of my finger on the body of the trigger, which resulted in the tip of the trigger biting my finger, I beleive the pistol grip design caused this. While cleaning last night I noticed something rolling around between the barrels, I removed the top abd bottom rib and found a piece of metal. After a quick look I found that it was originally mounted on the underside of the bottom rib. The L shaped piece lips under the front sight to hold the rib in place. It apparently is attached with some sort of glue. I will correct that twenty five cent piece of technology this evening. I also noticed that I could squeeze the right barrel and cause it to move towards the left (slightly). I tend to wrap my hand around the forearm, and wonder now if I was touching the barrel and applying pressure that caused the right barrel to shoot left of my first shot. I will certainly scope the gun, the rib is set up for ringmounts, I'm a little confused, since the rib tapers upward towards the muzzle I assume the front ring would have to be lower than the rear. I have seen some others with rings attached. Any idea's on the scope rings would be welcomed. Anyway this is my first (somewhat) real double rifle and I'm looking forward to enjoying it.

wcf


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Birdhunter50
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #117524 - 24/10/08 12:29 AM

WCF,
As you said, you got what you paid for. I had to work over the triggers on my Baikal before I could even test it for grouping. They are not hard to improve if you are not afraid to open them up and start in stoning the surfaces. Mine felt like it had about 10 pound triggers on an 8 pound gun, after smoothing them up I had around 3.5 on the lower and 4 pounds on the upper barrel. Mine was way off with the recommended ammo.
I'm talking 1 foot of spread for two shots at 25 yards! after much trial and error and machining of the spacer, I got it shooting decently. The stock on mine was similar to yours, it is too long to make it comfortable to shoot when trying to reach the front trigger, the back one was not so bad. They are not badly made guns, they are somewhat poorly designed, though. Bob H.


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beleg2
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #117527 - 24/10/08 12:42 AM

wcf,
You may find these threads fron another fourm very interesting:

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/760101804/m/601106429
Is it the piece you found?

http://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/760101804/m/728102339

Hope this hepls.
Martin


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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #117528 - 24/10/08 12:44 AM

Bob, thanks for the info. I remember a previous post when you had spoke of the O/U you had purchased. Given this is a side by side I assume working on the triggers won't be much more complicated. I hope I can work the stock over some to correct, I don't think investing in a re-stock would be prudent at this point. One thing I left out of previous post, when I had the top and bottom ribs off, the barrels appear to be close together just ahead of the foream (this is where the jacksrew is located) and then spread further apart at the muzzle. If it works so what; I guess. At least when I take it out won't be much concern with bumps and bruises. The gun seems to be extremly light on the barrel end. I wonder if there would be a way to correct???

thanks
wcf


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450_366
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #117539 - 24/10/08 02:11 AM

I think the long pull of the rear trigger could be a bit funny to correct. But i have never taken one apart, so i do not know for sure.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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4seventyModerator
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #117580 - 24/10/08 07:44 PM

WCF,
I think that one of the positives for these doubles is that while they appear to have a few problems, this is to be expected in a DR for that price, and the fact that they are so cheap means you haven't got much to lose by doing some tinkering, and if done right, you have plenty to gain.
Please keep us informed on any work and modifications you do, and how it all turns out.


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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: 4seventy]
      #117583 - 24/10/08 10:18 PM

4 Seventy, I completely agree. Last evening I had the chance to fire a few rounds, the first two were identical to the last two of my first shooting, described earlier. I decided to tinker with the jacksrew as it is called. It was may understanding that turning the jackscrew towards the butt of the rifle would move the impact of the right barrel to the right. I move it 4 clicks towards the butt and the point of impact for the right barrel moved 1.5 inches farther to the left. I returned the jackscrew back to the original position and the groups returned as they were previously. I then turned the jackscrew four clicks toward the muzzle and moved the right barrel point of impact 1 inch to the right. With these adjustments and a center bullseye hold at 25 yards I end up with the right barrel hitting at nine o'clock just off the bullseye and the left barrel one inch high to the point of aim. I plan on working on the trigger pulls this weekend. I checked them and the front trigger breaks at 8.5 pounds, the rear trigger at 9 pounds. Unsure how to deal with the travel and or creep in both triggers. In regards to the pistol grip design I don't know what to do. I found that if I take a firm grip well forward of where you normally would it makes the gun somewhat more comfortable to shoot but I still found myself still having to completely reset for the second shot. The sights will have to be replaced since they are difficult to acquire with any consistency (could be my age). The rear sight slants toward the shooter so I plan on turning it around and filing the U notch into a shallow "V". I believe for the front sight I will have to make something. Some folks on the AR site have posted a few idea's regarding the front sight that I believe will work. I also understand that NECG sella a peep sight for the Ruger guns that will fit the 11mm rib, this sight is about $80.00 so I will try to get the gun shooting before I invest in it. In regards to the gun being so light at the muzzle, I wonder if I might fit a piece of tooled steel between the barrels from just in front of the jackscrew to the front sight ramp. I believe it would add a few ounces, but will have to see how it effects the regulation. May not be worth the effort. If the rain ends over the weekend I will test other loads, I have read that the factory loaded 405 grains perform well. I'll keep you posted

wcf


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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #117688 - 26/10/08 10:55 AM

Today I shot 30 rounds through the Rem/Bakial. It took some time to find the sweet spot but I did locate it. I learned that my gun perfers the 405 grain JSP over the 300 grain variety of any type. At twent five yards the barrels shoot to the point of aim and six shots measure 2 3/4 inches center to center. The 300 grain rounds seem to be consistent 3 to 4 inches apart but elevation is fine. I plan on doing some more work with the 300 grain rounds. After I had regulated the gun with the 405 grain rounds I moved the ajustment on the jackscrew just to see if I could find the sweet spot again. It took 6 rounds and it was shooting to point of aim again. Tommorow I will move back to 50 yards and start again. Accepting the trigger pulls and the stock design I'm very happy with the gun. No problems that I can see at this point. I will mount a scope without a doubt as soon as I locate some rings that are suitable, perhaps Talley rings will work with a slight modification.wcf

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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #117798 - 28/10/08 11:12 PM

UPDATE; I worked through 40 rounds of Remington 300 Grain JHP with little success. The best group at 25 yards was 7 inches CTC. I did get the right barrel to shooting to POA however the left barrel shot 6 to 7 inches high, the windage was fine but elevation, I don't know. I shot 10 rounds of Hornady Leverloution, again the right barrel was in line but the left barrel was shooting high and to the right. The recoil from the Hornady was significantly more than the others. I went back to the Remington 405 grain factory loads and once again the gun was shooting better that I could hold it. The 50 yard groups with the 405 grain loads also stayed around 3-4 inches with the open sights. I have ordered scope rings and will attach optics later in the week. I have decided to purchase a 30-06, might as well get completely wet while I here.

regards
mkd


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ChrisPer
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #117802 - 29/10/08 12:05 AM

Sounds like you are having fun. Hope mine goes as well.

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tarawa
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: ChrisPer]
      #117809 - 29/10/08 02:12 AM

I am getting ready to take the plunge. The guns are starting to show up again online, but I have yet to find one locally. I went to the Baikal/Canada site and looked at the (Baikal's orignal configuration (Artimeda) and the wood configuration was way nicer. But remington's price is fair, so I won't complain about aesthetics.
Which rings did you order?

--------------------
Life is for Service


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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: tarawa]
      #117814 - 29/10/08 03:02 AM

I had ordered some rings from over the pond ($230.00) but have since changed my mind. A friend here purchased a 30-06 and he bought a Leupold Quick Release One Piece Base to fit a Marlin(I believe). He cut the base in two and then milled a dovetailed slot in the bottom of each. The now two piece base slides onto the 11mm rib. I haven't seen this setup so I'll hopefully get a look this evening and give more details. However if it looks and more importantly works I may opt for that approach.

wcf


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bwananelson
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #117853 - 29/10/08 01:59 PM

i went to cabelas and ordered a weaver conversion i want to mount a 30mm scope,it fits the 11mm rail but you can use weaver style rings.less than 20$

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: bwananelson]
      #117874 - 29/10/08 09:51 PM

bwananelson,
which Weaver conversion is that, I don't see it in my catalog, I'm sure I'm overlooking it. I looked at the leupold mount I spoke of in my last post. It seems functional but more than I want to invest.

thanks
wcf


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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #117965 - 31/10/08 12:16 AM

well I took a double dip and acquired a 30-06 Rem/Baikal double. I'm still looking for scope rings and or bases for each rifle. I took the 45-70 apart and worked on the trigger pulls, I simply cleaned the internal parts and stoned off some extremly rough areas. Trigger pull has improved front is at 5 lbs and rear at 6 lbs. I'll live with that. I made a shalow V out of the rear sight and made a modified front sight that has helped.

I have been looking at scope bases and rings for the Sako and Tikka line of guns "Optilock" (i believe)they appear to be set up for a similair dovetail cut on the top of receivers. Does anyone have any idea's on these. I've been unable to get any specifics from different retailers who are selling them

wcf


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farshot
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #117979 - 31/10/08 04:04 AM

The Sako and Tikka wil not work on the Baikals. The Baikals are 11 mm dovetails. The same as many air rifles and the BRNO/CZ line of .22 rifles (NOT 3/8" which is the common USA .22 rail standard).

The newer Sakos use an angled dovetail system that is much different. Old Tikkas used a 16mm dovetail system -- also used by BRNO/CZ in their 527 series of rifles. Just for completeness - the BRNO/CZ larger rifles use a 19mm dovetail.

I used a BKL set of rings on my Baikal 30-06 double. They work well as their construction allows them to flex to fit a 11mm rail perfectly.

I will get a set of BRNO/CZ 11 mm dovetail rings when I can as I like them the best.

I put a Dr. Optic dot sight on mine using a base made for the 11mm by one of the European base/ ring makers -- I cant recall which right now. They make bases for the Dr. Optic in Weaver, 11, 16 and 19 mm rails. They also make all the Euro rings and bases in all sizes.

My question to you is : How did you take apart your rifle to stone the triggers.? did you take out the main "star" screw at the base of the action? If so -- how did you get that star screw out? Mine is very very tight and will not budge, even with some heat. Is it a reverse thread?

BTW - mine shoots 180 gr Hornady round nose at 2640 ft/s to 1/2 inch at 50 yds with the optical sight on it. If only I can get that trigger down to something better!

We cant get the 45-70 in Canada for some reason. I wish I could.


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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: farshot]
      #118022 - 31/10/08 10:02 PM

farshot, thanks for the info on scope mounts, I'm trying not to over complicate but tend to over think details sometimes. I have ordered some bases from B-Square to allow the use of Weaver rings. Its a two piece set up not sure how it will play out yet. I have looked at some of the Dr Optic sights you speak, how do you like it?

Reference disassembly, the trigger plate screw on mine was tight but did break loose. I went to the AR site referenced in a previous post and found some good information on taking the gun apart.

wcf


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farshot
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #118040 - 01/11/08 01:18 AM

I tried one of the base adapters to low weaver mounts and found them to set the scope too high - too many things cobbled together --- BTW , the adapter that I got was from EAW in Europe. Ralph Martini here in Canada is a great help in getting me those things from Germany.

Re the Dr. Optic -- i like it alot up to 100 yds or so. At 100 yds it gets a bit iffy - it becomes a point it at the target and shoot. There is not a lot of precision markesmanship at that point. At 50yds or so for running animals it can't be beat. My eyes are not as good with peep sights (my favorite) as they once were - so this is the very next best thing.


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tarawa
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #118214 - 03/11/08 01:06 PM

Here is a picture of my three Baikal Doubles. The top double has a set of 11mm CZ rings. I feel that these are too high, looks not function. The side by side is fitted with the German MAK rings (~ 130 euros)They are not quick release, but they are low and look and function great. Well worth the price.



--------------------
Life is for Service


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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: tarawa]
      #118236 - 03/11/08 11:39 PM

tarawa,
I'm waiting on a set of the German MAK rings. In the interim I have used a set of Weaver base adapters with good success. On the 45-70 I installed a Weaver 1.5 (steel tube scope) with a Post crosshair. Its a little higher than I like but I must admit it adds some needed weight to the gun and shoots great. At 50 yards the Remington 405 grain factory loads are cloverleaf to point of aim. I have shot over 100 rounds through the 45-70 and it has performed better than I could have expected.
I picked up the 30-06 Friday and also mounted a scope using the Weaver Base adapters. The only scope I had to try out is a Leupold 3X-9X with a 40mm objective. The scope looks big on the gun but again the added weight seems to make it point better. If the 30-06 performs as well as the 45-70 I feel that I have certainly gotten my moneys worth. I'll try to post pictures of the pair in a few days.
To all of the members on this forum let me extend my thanks for your invaluable input. I have spent countless hours reading post, your honest opinions and years of experience has been a great source of information.

wcf


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dan_oz
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: tarawa]
      #118238 - 03/11/08 11:43 PM

I have steel rings by Lynx (B-Square) on my O/U, made for the 11mm dovetail, and with lever screws to make them hand-detachable. This setup works well, and the scope is at a comfortable height.



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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: dan_oz]
      #118254 - 04/11/08 03:05 AM

New question, In reading on another website, the suggestion was made in reference to the 30-06 Spartan that it could be re-chambered to a 30-30 Winchester by plugging the existing chamber and recutting the new chamber. I know most might wonder why, but I have an affliction for a 30-30 side by side. In looking at cartridge measurments the area of concern I see is the overall lenght of the 30-06 to the 30-30. Would that be a problem or would it act as freebore type chamber? Is that type of conversion possible and would you direct me to someone to do that type of conversion?

Thanks
WCF


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Daryl_S
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #118256 - 04/11/08 03:32 AM

The problem is the same as the Smidt-Rubens that were altered to .30/30 from 7.5x55 Swiss using chamber plugs. After a few rounds of fire, you eject the chamber plug along with a fired case.

I suggest you not even think of such a conversion. You can easily load your .30/06 to .30/30 levels if that is what you want.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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WCF
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: Daryl_S]
      #118317 - 05/11/08 01:19 AM

Daryl, thanks for the information. Never thought about the chamber plug popping out. Shame I would much rather have a lower pressure rimmed cartridge, but what the heck.

I shot the 30-06 yesterday (40 rounds Remington Factory 150 GR CLSP) first six shots at 25 yards barrels R/L printed on top of one another, 3 inches low and 2 inches to left. I adjusted the scope and at 25 yards the groups ended up at POA slightly over 1 inch.
At fifty yards the groups opened up slightly however I played with the jackscrew and the six shot group was POA and measured 1.5 inches. At 100 yards after 10 rounds the group was 1 inch low and measured 2.5 inches center to center. I made a slight elevation adjustment and ended up with a final group of 3 inches POA. As mentioned I fired a total of 40 rounds and all seems well. I have made a habit of swabbing the barrles out between shots. I must be the luckiest person in the world, both rifles have performed better than I could have imagined.

4seventy stated earlier, "you haven't got much to lose", "you have plenty to gain", truer words were never spoken. I'm one happy double gun nut.

wcf


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farshot
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Re: REM/Baikal 45-70, I took the Plunge [Re: WCF]
      #118319 - 05/11/08 01:45 AM

I agree, these are good shooting guns. They may need some trigger work, but they can shoot well.

The same goes for my new BRNO 803 o/u in 8x57R , thing is a bit heavy, a little different construction, but boy can it shoot once you figure it all out! The one set trigger makes all the difference in the world for accuracy, but even with the normal triggers, it can shoot very well compared to any double. That rifle was a $1600 gun, a bit more then the Baikals, but you get that little bit more also.

Baikals have always been strong, clunky, long lasting, good shooting guns. My friend has a 20 gauge single shot that he prefers to his other grouse guns - and it was owned by his grandfather at one time - some 45 years ago. It still is a light, handy, accurate little gun.


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