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I was in a shop today whilst on my lunch break and saw an American shooting magazine, guns and ammo. I was reading it and came across an article where the writer claims to have seen no "shock" or stunning effect from a near miss on a elephants brain with the .577 NE, in fact the elephant needed a second finishing shot.

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Any bullet missing the brain might fail to do the goods.

On some occasions even a near miss on the brain kills the elephant.

All life is variable.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Taylor's calculations are not for penetration but knock-out value where the increased frontal area of the larger calibers can make a difference. You still need to maintain adequate velocity of course. You also need to come close to the brain.

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Agree with your statement and Hoppdoc's assessment mentioned earlier--velocity in needed to a point. When visited with a PH who had hunted a fair amount in Botswana--he has stated he felt, in his opinion, the velocity of 2300 to 2400 fps was perfect for hunting the bigger elephants in that area..he felt this velocity helped the bullet penetrate more efficently from various angles including the straight on shot...as mentioned ..he has far more experience than I or most probably on the site..as he hunted elephants in that area for 6 years and was still doing it ..so.. tend to listenis to those with that kind of experience...

I too, read the article mentioned..believe it was Boddington hunting with a friend..would tend to agree the accuracy of the shot might have left a bit to be desired....bullets don't create miracles...as has been stated more often than not.."shot placement is critical" no matter how big of stick you are throwing ..and again proves the point one more time in this story...IMHO...

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (01/10/08 11:25 PM)

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Taylor's calculations are not for penetration but knock-out value where the increased frontal area of the larger calibers can make a difference. You still need to maintain adequate velocity of course. You also need to come close to the brain.

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I have no experience hunting elephants, but Taylor's assertions about this or that round stunning an elephant for this or that amount of time have been the kingpins in my personal belief that he was for the most part a fraud.

I would guess he probably shot some elephants, but nothing like the 1000 +- he claimed, and I also do not believe he used all the rifles and cartridges he claimed to have used. Much of his information could have been gleaned from other hunters, catalogues and good common sense. I wondered about him for years, then read Capstick's book {no I am not suggesting Capstick was the paragon of Truthtelling himself...} and Capstick does an excellent job trying to do the math in calculating the amount of time Taylor actually spent hunting versus his claims of the number of elephant he shot. Difficult to mesh the two. Many on this forum could sit down and pen a good saw about hunting and attribute to themselves this or that feat or this or that experience {do they...?}. Personally, I wonder if Taylor "borrowed" alot of Fletcher Jamieson's experiences. Regardless, it would be easy to pickup practical knowledge from hunters. I have spent enough time talking to friends who HAVE shot lots of elephants that I betcha I could spin a good tale or two myself!

Do the math for yourselves; read Taylor with an open and critical mind and ask yourself: Do you really believe Taylor had experience with all the guns/loads he says he did?

At any rate, even if everything he attributed to himself was absolutely true, I believe his assertion of keeping elephant down with head shots for this or that amount of time is patently ridiculous. To try to understand why a round didn't perform according to what Taylor said it should have is to chase a fast rabbit. The falsehood of the basic premise is going to make the investigation of the effect as easy as catching smoke.

Just my $.02.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Whatever, he does make for a good read...just have to take it with a ton (grain) of salt..

Ripp

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Applies to Taylor, too!

Great writer.

Or...was the original publisher Samworth the writer...

Oh, no, there goes my skepticism again...



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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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I was in a shop today whilst on my lunch break and saw an American shooting magazine, guns and ammo. I was reading it and came across an article where the writer claims to have seen no "shock" or stunning effect from a near miss on a elephants brain with the .577 NE, in fact the elephant needed a second finishing shot.

Now I havent read as many books as some here and certainly havent had the sights of my own .577 on an elephant, but I always thought that the .577 NE was THE stopper for when things went south, for it can be depended on to turn or knock out the animal even in the event of a near miss. It seems from this account that my .416 rigby would be as effective, and that the extra recoil and rifle weight of the .577 is pointless as it still wont do the job needed.

So my question is two fold, firstly is the big .577 over-rated in its effectivness in dangerous situations, and secondly if the taylor KO value needed to KO an elephant os aprox 50 from memory, then the .577's 100+ should have been enough, so is the taylor KO system flawed? Could poor marksmanship have been partly responsible? Not looking at starting a war just this article seems to fly in the face of everything I thought I knew about the .577 NE

Cheers
Steve

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I have not shot anything with the 577 NE but I have shot 1 elephant and 1 buffalo with the 585 nyati (750 grain .585" bullet at 2250 fps). Penetration with solids was 3 to 3.5 feet. In comparison with my experience with the 500 NE, the 585 Nyati seems to transmit more shock to the animal when taking a body shot. But I am not convinced it is worth carrying the extra 3 to 5 pounds of rifle for that extra shock.

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I have no experience hunting elephants, but Taylor's assertions about this or that round stunning an elephant for this or that amount of time have been the kingpins in my personal belief that he was for the most part a fraud.

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I have no experience hunting elephants, but Taylor's assertions about this or that round stunning an elephant for this or that amount of time have been the kingpins in my personal belief that he was for the most part a fraud.

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Hmmm.

While I would agree with the view that you cannot mathematically compute how long an elephant will be knocked unconscious by a given round, I would say that using the Taylor index for relative impact on elephant is a good starting point. Some people with a fair amount of elephant hunting experience agree.

I also think it is too easy to bash those who are not alive to defend themselves, like Taylor or Capstick.

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I am not suggesting that there is no difference in power between the various elephant rounds. It is obvious that there is.

As for it being easy to bash the dead, I don't think so. Dead heroes commonly have devotees who oftimes are far more defensive of the hero's views than the hero was. It's just that when you read of Taylor's travels, the actual amount of time he spent in the field and the known times he wasn't hunting or lived in Africa but didn't own guns, was going here or there dodging the authorities, was back in Eire, etc, it becomes obvious to me that he couldn't have actually done all he said he did in regards to calibers used and elephants slain.

I do believe he had pretty wide hunting experience. Not sure how to quantify that.

But my point isn't that he did have or didn't have general hunting experience. My point is that his assertion that this round or that round will produce a known "knock out time" {read the book, he says it, and hangs minutes on each round} is ridiculous and I have never read of or spoken to one hunter with substantial elephant hunting experience who agrees with Taylor's rigid and silly timings. As mentioned in this thread, for one thing, comparing close-but-missed shots is very difficult. His general KO principles seem about right but as Mike LaGrange has pointed out, his math was wrong even if his general ideas were right. But seriously, creating a sliding scale that says the .600 NE is a better "Stopper" than a 9.3x62 doesn't seem like it demands the mind of Niels Bohr or the experience of Tony Sanches-Arino.

In death as in life he was a controversial character, to be sure!

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Bramble, I think we are actually discussing the point.

The original post goes; "the writer claims to have seen no "shock" or stunning effect from a near miss on a elephants brain with the .577 NE, in fact the elephant needed a second finishing shot."

Aussiesteve asks if the .577 should have stopped the critter regardless. A good question since some have asserted that the big ones {.577, .600} are guaranteed to knock an elephant down even if the brain is missed. Even tho the round is not the heavy .577, Pondoro's position would imply that the animal should have been stopped anyhow.

I agree with you that a shot that doesn't hit the brain can't be counted on to do much of anything. It MIGHT, but might not. Stating that a near miss will keep an elephant down for some such number of minutes as Pondoro attests, seems to me to be simple exaggeration or playing on what was hoped by him would be the lack of technical awareness of the readership.

My point is in total agreement with you that a head shot that fails to hit the brain on any critter cannot be RELIED UPON to stop that critter, even if that round is a .577.

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But compared with a 9,3x62 it should deliver more energy if the penetration are the same shouldnt it.
And if it would stunn a ele for this and that amount om minutes (sound stupit thats for sure)
for a specific shot it would do so for a longer time than the 9,3mm.

For all we now the "near miss" could have been way of and not near the brain. And also if the 577 was that good why did they make a 600 or a 700?

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Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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For all we now the "near miss" could have been way of and not near the brain. And also if the 577 was that good why did they make a 600 or a 700?

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For that matter, why have any new cartridges been introduced for the last 80 yrs?

The assertion that the 577 isn't up to snuff based on a missed brain shot is laughable!

I have seen people shot in the face with a .45ACP and a 30'06 point blank and both survived.
Does this mean the .45 and 30'06 are inadequate?

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Does this mean the .45 and 30'06 are inadequate?

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Hell yes! We should all go out and buy .700s
although someone told me that doesn't penetrate all that well either. Oh well, .500 it is

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