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gryphon
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More on lions in the pen
      #114904 - 20/09/08 05:23 AM

South Africa: Canned lion hunting not illegal
on 2008/9/18

Cape Town - Most of the more than 700 lions shot and killed in South Africa by foreign hunters last year were "captive-bred" animals, the Department of Environmental Affairs confirmed on Tuesday.

It was reacting to an earlier statement by Animal Rights Africa (ARA), which warned that "since 2005, the number of lions killed by the canned predator industry has doubled".

The department said lions were not listed as "large predators" under current Threatened or Protected Species Regulations (TOPS).

"The regulation of prohibited activities involving listed large predators is thus not applicable to lions... Most of the lions hunted during 2007 were captive-bred lions," director regulation and monitoring services Bonani Madikizela said in an e-mail sent to Sapa.

According to a recent written reply by Environment Minister Marthinus van Schalkwyk to a Parliamentary question, a total of 702 lions were "hunted by foreign clients in each province in 2007".

The majority, 637, were killed in North West province.

Canned hunting growing rapidly

Earlier on Tuesday, ARA said canned lion hunting - a controversial practice whereby animals are bred and raised in captivity before being released onto game farms to be shot by hunters - was growing rapidly.

"The general public, both local and international, cannot be criticised for thinking canned hunting is a thing of the past.

"But nothing can be further from the truth. Far from being controlled, the canned hunting industry... is growing exponentially," the NGO said.

Legal action

Madikizela said a decision was taken by his department late last year to "temporarily exclude" lions from the TOPS definition of large predators, following legal action from the SA Predator Breeders Association (SAPBA).

"It was decided that by changing the definition, the implementation of the Threatened or Protected Species Regulations will not be jeopardised, as SAPBA wanted to stop the implementation of TOPS," he said.

Last year, Van Schalkwyk announced the regulations, which he said were aimed at "putting an end, once and for all, to the reprehensible practice of canned hunting".

They originally sought to outlaw the hunting of captive-bred large predators, including lions, within two years of their release on a property for the purpose of hunting.

# According to Van Schalkwyk's reply to the Parliamentary question, tabled in August, foreign hunters last year also hunted and killed - among other animals - 27 elephant, 56 hippo and 156 white rhino.

Also included on the list of hunted species were 15 yellow mongoose, a scrub and grasslands mammal that weighs about 500g, four aardwolf and 370 vervet monkeys.

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/Politics/0,,2-7-12_2395110,00.html

--------------------
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Huvius
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: gryphon]
      #115004 - 21/09/08 03:02 AM

We all agree that canned hunting is, at its best, unsporting.
This post makes me think that this breed and hunt scenario isn't as bad as it sounds.
Think about it...
Predator breeding for the purpose of hunting is in no way detrimental to the populations of wild lions.
A hunter paying the hunting fees as well as the expense associated with the hunt is injecting much needed money into the African economy. I know not in the indigenous tribal sense, but in the overall economy sense.
The hunter gets the thrill of shooting a lion which still has some capacity to harm him - if that's his thing.
It is proven that large cats breed well in captivity - so much so - that the US has the highest population of tiger in the world.

If we look at the facts, large predators in Africa could be utilised in the same way as fur bearers and our own North American Bison (which are mostly canned hunts) are here. As an agricultural asset.

IMO, offering captive bred predators such as lion and tiger would greatly decrease hunting and poaching pressure in their wild populations.
Not an endorsement, just another way of looking at it...

--------------------
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Ripp
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: Huvius]
      #115006 - 21/09/08 03:17 AM

While I too do not promote the "canned hunt" and it is NOT for me..for some it is..and hold no ill feelings for those who do..

I think your assesment above is spot on..as is also the feelings of many in Africa..including PH's and booking agencies in other nations..with the canned hunt maintained...it greatly reduces the pressure and cost of the wild population...if 700 where shot in the "canned hunts" in South Africa --not so sure the wild population could hold up to the type of pressure..

Again, Not promoting..but do feel it does help the wild lions a bit..IMHO


Ripp

--------------------
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500Nitro
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: Ripp]
      #115007 - 21/09/08 03:31 AM


The one major thing I object to in "canned" hunting is
people (the hunter) then crowing about it and putting
them in Record Books.

The same occurs in New Zealand where Red Deer are bred
solely to have huge, multi point antlers which they sell
to rich hunters at $10,000 a pop. Invariably the animals
are on a deer farm.

A mate sent a photo to me of a 26 point Red Stag.
To me it looked more like a Hat Rack than anything
else.

Shoot the animals wherever you like, I do, but don't
crow about it as a Hunting Trophy IMHO. (Note I used the words "Shoot" and "Hunt" as I differentiate between the two).


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larcher
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: 500Nitro]
      #115041 - 21/09/08 07:00 PM

Quote:


The one major thing I object to in "canned" hunting is
people (the hunter) then crowing about it and putting
them in Record Books.

The same occurs in New Zealand where Red Deer are bred
solely to have huge, multi point antlers which they sell
to rich hunters at $10,000 a pop. Invariably the animals
are on a deer farm.

A mate sent a photo to me of a 26 point Red Stag.
To me it looked more like a Hat Rack than anything
else.

Shoot the animals wherever you like, I do, but don't
crow about it as a Hunting Trophy IMHO. (Note I used the words "Shoot" and "Hunt" as I differentiate between the two).







TROPHY STAGS BREEDING FARMS IN NEW ZEALAND


The Kiwis have the merit and honesty of plain transparency. No such thing with Lion breeders.

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."


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500Nitro
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: larcher]
      #115047 - 21/09/08 09:23 PM


"The Kiwis have the merit and honesty of plain transparency."


Agreed, the Kiwis have never hidden the fact that Deer Farms are fully fenced.


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Ripp
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: 500Nitro]
      #115055 - 22/09/08 12:05 AM

Quote:


The one major thing I object to in "canned" hunting is
people (the hunter) then crowing about it and putting
them in Record Books.





+++++++++++++


Agree totally with your statement---BUT, it is what it is...let them crow...most "INFORMED" hunters know the situation once the question is answered of "where did you go hunting"?...

I was told of a story by the camera man of a hunt he was filming of plains game in S Africa..suddenly about the 3rd morning a lion appeared and was killing game..the went out and "ironically enough" the lion was there on bait (I mean fresh kill ) and they were able to take that lion...and THEN, even more ironically, another lion was with him ..must of been traveling together...so the hunters wife shot that one..all for gran total of about $60,000. ---he said it was rediculous on how it played out but the guy bought it hook, line and sinker...

So as stated, agree, doesn't matter to me where they kill them if they can be honest about it...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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larcher
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: Ripp]
      #115060 - 22/09/08 02:11 AM

quoting Ripp "suddenly about the 3rd morning a lion appeared and was killing game..the went out and "ironically enough" the lion was there on bait (I mean fresh kill ) and they were able to take that lion...and THEN, even more ironically, another lion was with him ..must of been traveling together...so the hunters wife shot that one..all for gran total of about $60,000. ---he said it was rediculous on how it played out but the guy bought it hook, line and sinker..."

I love it.

From my friend JPK, veterinarian. A hunter in my region (Alsace) went hunting lion. Where I don't know but as they are Germanophile I suspect in Namibia or in SA. Don't know exactly how hard he worked for finding a decent lion but eventually killed a decent lion.
When the trophies arrived in France, a thorough look on the lion's skull showed some plate screwed into the lower jawbone.
The lion has had his broken jaw fixed by a veterinarian in the past. 2 Hypotheses : either a bred lion for canned hunting or worse a lion bought in a zoo.
The hunter kicked up an extensive fuss and the story was aired all over. I have to ask the taxidermist what compensation the sucker got.

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: Huvius]
      #115111 - 22/09/08 01:16 PM

Quote:

We all agree that canned hunting is, at its best, unsporting.
This post makes me think that this breed and hunt scenario isn't as bad as it sounds.
Think about it...
Predator breeding for the purpose of hunting is in no way detrimental to the populations of wild lions.
A hunter paying the hunting fees as well as the expense associated with the hunt is injecting much needed money into the African economy. I know not in the indigenous tribal sense, but in the overall economy sense.
The hunter gets the thrill of shooting a lion which still has some capacity to harm him - if that's his thing.
It is proven that large cats breed well in captivity - so much so - that the US has the highest population of tiger in the world.

If we look at the facts, large predators in Africa could be utilised in the same way as fur bearers and our own North American Bison (which are mostly canned hunts) are here. As an agricultural asset.

IMO, offering captive bred predators such as lion and tiger would greatly decrease hunting and poaching pressure in their wild populations.
Not an endorsement, just another way of looking at it...




I agree.

I detest "canned" "hunting" in every form.

However I wonder if closing down lion breeding in South Africa would help or hurt the survival of the lion species in the wild. I suspect it would hurt it, not directly as I doubt most "can hunters" would hunt properly in the wild anyway, but the loss of all the lion in captive breeding programmes would be a tremendous loss that might be useful oneday for wild population use.

--------------------
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...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: 500Nitro]
      #115114 - 22/09/08 01:26 PM

Quote:


The one major thing I object to in "canned" hunting is
people (the hunter) then crowing about it and putting
them in Record Books.

The same occurs in New Zealand where Red Deer are bred
solely to have huge, multi point antlers which they sell
to rich hunters at $10,000 a pop. Invariably the animals
are on a deer farm.

A mate sent a photo to me of a 26 point Red Stag.
To me it looked more like a Hat Rack than anything
else.

Shoot the animals wherever you like, I do, but don't
crow about it as a Hunting Trophy IMHO. (Note I used the words "Shoot" and "Hunt" as I differentiate between the two).




I agree too.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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MarkR
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Reged: 29/07/07
Posts: 296
Loc: NW Vic. Australia
Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: 500Nitro]
      #115128 - 22/09/08 03:08 PM

Quote:


The one major thing I object to in "canned" hunting is
people (the hunter) then crowing about it and putting
them in Record Books.


Shoot the animals wherever you like, I do, but don't
crow about it as a Hunting Trophy IMHO. (Note I used the words "Shoot" and "Hunt" as I differentiate between the two).




Gees 500Nitro, sounds like a conversation we had a few Saturday mornings ago at a Footscray gunshop.

Cheers,
Mark.


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shakari
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: MarkR]
      #115137 - 22/09/08 05:08 PM

Personally I think it's an abhorrant practice and the people who are involved in it, including the customers, should be ashamed of themselves.

I think the issues go a lot deeper than many people think. The antis are always gonna be out to ban hunting in all its forms and one of our best defenses is that we hunt ethically and use hunting as a conservation tool. All the while canned hunting is available, they can use it as a weapon against us to get not only that but also other forms of hunting banned. Therefore, the the sooner we ban it for ethical reasons, the better it'll be for all of us.

The practicalities of banning it however are difficult. First of all, how do you define canned hunting? - Once you have a set definition then the Lion farmers will be trying to get around it and even if you do ban the practice, you can bet your life a large number of large wooden crates will be finding their way across borders etc. - These blokes can hardly be trusted to behave ethically can they.........

As for genetic diversity, I don't really think that is a valid argument. Firstly, the 'canned genes' are outside of the wild pool and modern technology now means we can keep the genetic diversity in a frozen test tube.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (22/09/08 06:26 PM)


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Sarg
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: shakari]
      #115147 - 22/09/08 08:03 PM

Would not all White Rhino hunts be "Can" like too ?
not free rangeing all farmed (enclosed)and sold at auctions and moved around ,the same with big Kudu , Sable in Southern Africa !


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peter
removed


Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: Sarg]
      #115152 - 22/09/08 09:06 PM

f**k it, i admit it, im into canned hunting , anything that will help me put trophys on the wall so i can impress others with my manlihood
this picture caught me while assing trophy quality on a heartebeest

had it been big enough i would have shot it then and there, maybe next year

best regards

peter

Edited by peter (22/09/08 11:08 PM)


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Birdhunter50
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: peter]
      #115157 - 22/09/08 09:40 PM

I agree with Shakari, I think canned hunting just gives the anti hunting bunch more to point at when trying to stop all hunting. In all fairness, I must state that I feel the same way about most of the "HUNTING" shows that are now on T.V. Some "guide" finds the big buck for the "Hunter", then he patterns it for a couple of weeks, then he hangs the tree stands so that the guy has the best possible chance, then he takes him out to the stand in the dark and tells him to "sit right here and wait".
All the hunter has to do is make the shot, and in the next sequence, after 5 minutes of commercials, we see the guide and the happy hunter sitting down to a gourmet meal fixed up for him by the chef in a five star lodge. Some hunter! This sends the wrong message to young people. Bob H.


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shakari
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: Sarg]
      #115163 - 22/09/08 10:45 PM

Quote:

Would not all White Rhino hunts be "Can" like too ?
not free rangeing all farmed (enclosed)and sold at auctions and moved around ,the same with big Kudu , Sable in Southern Africa !




Personally, I feel there's a major difference between buying plains game animals and even rhino at auction where they've been living in either a game park or other reserve etc and translocating them and breeding/raising Lions in captivity and then releasing them for shooting. All that said, I much prefer to hunt in unfenced areas rather than fenced areas, no matter how big they are...........

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: shakari]
      #115222 - 23/09/08 12:47 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Would not all White Rhino hunts be "Can" like too ?
not free rangeing all farmed (enclosed)and sold at auctions and moved around ,the same with big Kudu , Sable in Southern Africa !




Personally, I feel there's a major difference between buying plains game animals and even rhino at auction where they've been living in either a game park or other reserve etc and translocating them and breeding/raising Lions in captivity and then releasing them for shooting. All that said, I much prefer to hunt in unfenced areas rather than fenced areas, no matter how big they are...........




I disagree.

Canned hunting by its definition should include animals raised in pens and then released at the beginning of the season or before the hunter arrives.

I note you mention raised in a game park or reserve, but really how many of these animals are raised in the "pseudo-wild" and how many in breeding pens?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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shakari
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: NitroX]
      #115238 - 23/09/08 03:17 PM

John,

I agree with you completely and think your definitions are extremely accurate. However, I honestly don't know of any plains game or rhino that are bred/raised in pens. Even when KZN parks board had the (W) Rhino breeding programme which brought them back from the brink of extinction, I don't think they ever kept them in pens for any appreciable amount of time. - I might be wrong on that, but I don't think so.

I certainly wouldn't consider hunting anything that was raised in that manner under any circumstances.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (23/09/08 03:44 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: shakari]
      #115255 - 23/09/08 08:36 PM

Quote:

John,

I agree with you completely and think your definitions are extremely accurate. However, I honestly don't know of any plains game or rhino that are bred/raised in pens. Even when KZN parks board had the (W) Rhino breeding programme which brought them back from the brink of extinction, I don't think they ever kept them in pens for any appreciable amount of time. - I might be wrong on that, but I don't think so.

I certainly wouldn't consider hunting anything that was raised in that manner under any circumstances.




There was a TV show here on SA "Canned" hunting, I forget his name, I will search it out, and the plains game were in small breeding pens.

Of course being on TV it must be "true"

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: NitroX]
      #115272 - 23/09/08 09:53 PM



This was the show I believe:
Louis Theroux: African Hunting Holiday

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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shakari
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: NitroX]
      #115276 - 23/09/08 10:00 PM

Hi John,

I've heard of the programme but haven't seen it.

I've never heard of PG being kept in pens for breeding purposes and don't really see the point of it as one breeding bull can serve a lot more females if they're in a herd situation rather than in seperate pens, but who am I to argue with Mr Thoroux..........

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: shakari]
      #115277 - 23/09/08 10:05 PM

Quote:

Hi John,

I've heard of the programme but haven't seen it.

I've never heard of PG being kept in pens for breeding purposes and don't really see the point of it as one breeding bull can serve a lot more females if they're in a herd situation rather than in seperate pens, but who am I to argue with Mr Thoroux..........




Personally I thought Theroux was a complete wanker.

But I was commenting on scenes in the TV show where the outfitter had his alleged breeding pens. Appeared to be pens of a number of antelope, each small herd in an enclosure. Was said to be the breeding pens. The outfitter commented on his business and how the stock were very valuable and he was running them and selling them just like any other stock.

Obviously by now in the show he was quite upset with Theroux as he suspected he was being setup by the TV crew.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: NitroX]
      #115288 - 23/09/08 10:52 PM

I never trust anyone in the media and consider them all worthy of nothing more than being used for Leopard bait. - Maybe I'm biased because I got tucked up by the bastards some years ago and it caused me no end of hassle.

I guess there must be a reason the owner kept the game in pens but I've got no idea why he would do it and all I can say it's bloody unusual and would be needlessly expensive to keep them that way....... just feed and labout costs of keeping them clean would be considerable. All you gotta do is turn 'em loose in the veld to look after themselves and run occasional anti poaching patrols and you've cracked it!

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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McLarenSafaris
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: shakari]
      #115776 - 29/09/08 12:29 AM

This canned lion hunting of captive bred lions have me worried. Right at the start of this post I state categorically: I will never ever again have anything to do with any lion hunt. That reads ANY, be it real wild one or canned. I have nothing to ever gain from any lion hunting at all; so regard my views as objective, and from the point of a plains game hunter only.

I share the view that with all the canned lion hunting available on offer - and with all the takers - it must surely reduce hunting pressure on wild lions! But does it? And if it does reduce the pressure on wild lions is it good for the lions? How will it likely affect the price of wild lion hunting if the TOPS regulations are amended to include lion in the list of large predators? On the other hand I agree with Steve Shakari - it is a nasty business. I decided to get hold of the actual statistics. I came across this letter in my search. Some may want to read it and get another view on the matter.

Here a letter written by the, then newly formed, South African Predators Breeders Association:

http://www.sapredators.co.za/docs/COMMENT%20ON%20THE%20DRAFT%20REGULATION%2019-06-06.pdf

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren

--------------------
Andrew McLaren

"A good hunt is worth whatever you pay for it. A bad hunt is not worth the time spent on it"

http://www.mclarensafaris.com


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shakari
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Re: More on lions in the pen [Re: McLarenSafaris]
      #115859 - 30/09/08 12:14 AM

Andrew,

Thanks for posting the letter and my comments below are directed to the letter and not to you for posting it.

I have to say I think the letter is a load of self serving bollocks and not suprisingly written in an attempt to protect their own interests and nothing more. To suggest a ban on canned Lion hunting would endanger the SA hunting industry as a whole is utterly ridiculous. All it would do is put the Lion breeders out of business and nothing more. -Which IMO is a very good thing and the sooner it happens, the better.

To suggest the ban would put more pressure on wild Lions, is (IMO) equally ridiculous. I doubt there's a single country in Africa that allows Lions to be shot without a quota system of some kind in place and if there were such countries, I'm sure CITES and/or other organisations would take steps to correct the situaton. (An example of how this happens is the USF&WS and Mozambique Elephants) Tanzania for example, allows a quota of 4 Lions per block per year. Banning Lion breeding and canned Lion hunting in SA won't affect the Lion population in Tanzania at all.

For them to suggest that SCI supports captive breeding of Lions is also untrue and in fact SCI don't allow SA Lions to be entered into their record books. I'm not a fan of SCI at all, but for once I take my hat off to them for their decision.

I notice that at the start of the letter it's suggested that captive Lion breeding helps the wild population and later on says that captive Lion breeding has absolutely no effect on wild Lion populations. - How's that for a stunning piece of logic!

They also raise the point of various diseases in the parks and suggest their Lions migh help in some way. It's been proved that the current populations in the parks are slowly developing an immunity to those diseases and in fact I personally saw an example of that just last week........ how I wonder, can Lions that don't have that immunity help the wild population that do have such immunity?

Permitting Lion breeding and canned hunting to continue, will eventually get all of us hunters tarred with the same brush by the antis and one day they'll use it as a weapon to get all hunting, everywhere, banned. Make no mistake about it at all, if we hunters don't police our actions and our ethics ourselves, one day, someone else will come along and do it for us......... and they won't be pro hunting.


--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (30/09/08 02:05 AM)


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