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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39885
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Greener Empire ?
      #11319 - 10/03/04 02:49 PM

Finally got hold of one.

I puchased yesterday a Greener Empire 12 bore side by side shotgun. Unfortunately sight unseen. Maybe I've been a sucker and purchased a lemon but will in a few weeks find out.

Now I don't want this Greener to remain a shotgun for long. I think it is destined to become a double rifle.

What calibre do our esteemed members suggest it be made into?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #11321 - 10/03/04 02:53 PM

450 3 1/4 NE. Cheaper 45 bullets for reloading. Come to think of it, how about the 450/400. It uses 411 bullets and easy to come by also.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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NONE
.300 member


Reged: 15/12/03
Posts: 110
Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #11323 - 10/03/04 02:56 PM

There is but one choice 12ga conversion .577 nitro. BTW I am envious I have a eye out for a 12ga Greener for this same reason. I will be looking forward to whom you have do it and how it turns out what every caliber you decide on.

James F. Nixon III

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ThomasEdwards
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Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #11325 - 10/03/04 03:01 PM

...good show...

...i echo the view for a .450ne...if only for the notoriety...

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #11328 - 10/03/04 03:08 PM

Nitro, come to think of it, just pack it up and send it my way. I'll do the conversion and give it a good home.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: 475Guy]
      #11329 - 10/03/04 03:11 PM

Well this should be interesting. Can you do the work yourself? Where will you get barrels. Will the Greener hold up to a 577 rear thrust?

Inquiring Minds Want to Know.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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NONE
.300 member


Reged: 15/12/03
Posts: 110
Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: mickey]
      #11330 - 10/03/04 03:27 PM

Mickey,

The ones I have seen done were all in .577 I do not know how they will hold up long term but this seams the common conversion. I belive a member on this site has one converted to .577 as has been alluded to in the past. This is yet another I have had in the back of my mind for a while. I want that charge stopper I have no use for of course only if a gun bearer will carry it.

James F. Nixon III

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RobertD
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Reged: 16/11/03
Posts: 67
Loc: East Bay, CA, USA
Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NONE]
      #11332 - 10/03/04 03:41 PM

Why not a 470 NE or a 500 NE? both of these are very popular. As is a 375 FM. For me, I would opt for a 470 or 500 NE, with 470 NE if resale is a factor.

RobertD

--------------------
NRA Life Member
CRPA Life Member
SCI Golden Gate Member

"Time is never found, if you want time for something, you have to make it."

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NONE]
      #11334 - 10/03/04 04:22 PM

N, I believe that was Marrakai who did a 577 conversion. I think it was the 577 2 3/4. He hasn't posted here for a while so he may have to speak up on that.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: 475Guy]
      #11359 - 11/03/04 03:06 AM

Yes Marrakai's story was what prompted me to look for one.

He built a .577 2 3/4 NE on a Greener Empire and that is definitely the calibre I am leaning towards. He also gave me the name of the 'smith to contact which I haven't done yet. If all else fails it will stay as a shotgun but will need to be cleaned up a lot from the sellers reports. The bores are said to be good and the action tight. Time will tell.


Marrakai's Greener story.



Greener story

I suppose another choice might be a .375 Flanged in 2 1/2".

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #11360 - 11/03/04 03:14 AM

This is a relevant thread to this discusson.

Making a double rifle




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #11397 - 11/03/04 02:40 PM

From a previous post, here is another Greener Empire which was converted. This time to a "Cape Gun" in .577 2 3/4" and 12-bore shotgun.





W.W. Greener shotgun / rifle combo Cape Gun

WW Greener no. 70571 combo 12 bore shotgun by .577 rifle. Originally a 12 ga SxS shotgun, it has been
converted to a Cape gun and is in excellent rebuilt condition. Based on the Empire action with
a new mono block, the work was completed 2 years ago. With 24" barrels with 1 standing rear sight.
Restocked butt and forend with excellent wood.

Weight is 10 lbs, LOP is 14 ¾" over a Silver's pad. DAC is 1 1/8", DAH is 2".


Previous thread:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=MediumBores&Number=6793&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (05/04/06 06:39 PM)

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #11399 - 11/03/04 03:33 PM

Very nice!

Kind of makes a guy jealous...

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: 500grains]
      #11403 - 11/03/04 03:51 PM

Yep, no shit , Sherlock. That wood is pretty nice.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #11425 - 12/03/04 10:27 AM

Nitro,
Much depends on what you intend to do with the rifle and how you want it to feel.
The size of your 12 g frame should influence your decision.
You need to match the bore size to the spacing between both strikers at the action face.
Otherwise you could end up with a double with very poor handling and/or looks.
The spacing between the strikers will directly affect the barrel spacing at the chambers and at the muzzels and also the overall contour and ballance of the barrels as well as the width of the ribs.
I saw an article in Man Magnum on a 450 cal built on a 12 g frame and it looked silly as the barrel spacing was miles apart at the muzzels and the ribs looked way to broad.
577 is a good size for the 12g frame.
I'm a double rifle shooter rather than collector, so I want a gun that has the right feel, fit, and handling quality rather than a gun with a certain makers name or particular caliber.
As I've stated before, it is not hard to build a double on a shotgun frame, but the end result can vary greatly as far as how the gun handles and "feels".

I've handled a few doubles made on shotties and very few actually feel the way they should.
Hasten slowly on this one if you are hoping to end up with a gun that is a joy to handle and shoot.

Edited by 4seventy (14/03/04 08:23 PM)

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #11569 - 15/03/04 12:25 PM

NitroX - Why build something that you can buy "off the hook"?? Not sure what you hunt in "Cabernet Country", but if it's in closely a settled area - have you thought of a wildcat to duplicate one of the SSK Industries "Whisper" rounds. I had thought of building up a 30 Whisper on a Sako action to tackle the Giant Grasshoppers in my neck of the woods (ever seen one of those wearing earmuffs?), but can't bring myself to own a boltgun! So, I'm now looking around for one of those little Ugartechea 28 bores to start with. Built up a 44/40 WCF on one their .410 actions once - neat little conversion that handled 240 gn pills at 1350 fps and was quite devastasting on the aforementioned. Will probably settle on using a 30/30WCF case (in fact - not a wildcat as far as case dimensions go - but regulated for 220 gn pill at sub-sonic velocities - using 1 in 8 twist.Pressure should be OK. So - on your Empire action - why not something to duplicate the 338 Whisper? Lets face it - doubles are for stalkers and if you can't get within 50 yards - you might as well go to the Video parlour for your shooting experience. The Whisper concept seems tailor-made for doubles. Surprised it hasn't been done before!

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NONE
.300 member


Reged: 15/12/03
Posts: 110
Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #11574 - 15/03/04 01:01 PM

.470Rigby,

Please correct me if I am out of date on my information but the whisper was original designed simply to be a short subsonic hard hitting flat shooting round to be used in Suppressed applications. I have heard recently of people chambering hunting rifles to fire these cartridges as you mentioned, what would be the advantage of one of these rounds rather then a conventional .30 cal round? I would think the low velocity of whisper rounds would make them less then ideal for use when a suppressor would not be used.

Maybe a I am simply out of date on the evolution of the whisper rounds any information would be appreciated.

James F. Nixon III

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470Rigby
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Reged: 23/02/04
Posts: 328
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NONE]
      #11587 - 15/03/04 03:10 PM

NONE - You are corrct about the inception of the Whisper concept - basically for urban "use"! But it has been taken a step further. The use of heavy projectiles with high ballistic coefficient (reduced trajectory drop - better energy retention); barely stabilised projectiles at subsonic velocities which tumble on contact (reduced carry in the event of ricochet and excellent terminal ballistics). I am not talking about using suppressors - apart from being difficult to engineer on a double - and illegal for some of us mere mortals in some places, the absence of supersonic blast just doesn't seem to scare the natives - whether two-legged or four. Taking the concept further for double rifles, reduced muzzle velocities in appropriate size cases has got to equal low pressures - which is what you always come up against in using shotgun actions to build double rifles. Who said you can't build a better mousetrap?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #11593 - 15/03/04 06:21 PM

Some good ideas but I don't really worry about the noise much to the probable annoyance of my neighbours. The only time my nearest neighbour complained (to me) was when I sighted in my .375 H&H from inside the carport - as it was raining - and at night - as I like to leave it to the last moment - i adds to the excitement - using my car's headlights to illuminate the target.

I do like the idea of a .577. I just wonder if the .577 2 3/4" has the "goods" for the real nasties or not?





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mickey
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #11626 - 16/03/04 09:01 AM

Nitro
The .577 2 3/4 is more than adequate. With the 750 grain bullet at 1800fps it develops over 5000 lbs of ME. The 650 at 1950 will give you almost as much. No worries with the 2 3/4" model.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #11667 - 16/03/04 05:48 PM

mickey's right in that the 577 2 3/4 will do what you want of it.
The question will be whether the finished project rifle will feel like a double should feel.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: 4seventy]
      #11670 - 16/03/04 06:10 PM

Maybe I might get lucky later this year and fondle one for a few minutes to find out.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #14002 - 26/04/04 05:49 PM

Finally got to see it for a few minutes in the gunshop. It is worn with very little blueing but otherwise fine, but I really like it as a shotgun too. I will want to try it out as a shotgun first I think.




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Marrakai
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: NitroX]
      #14009 - 26/04/04 09:56 PM

NitroX:
The Empire is indeed a fine duck-gun, great for pass-shooting though perhaps a little heavy for use over decoys. How is your season looking so far?

Plenty of time after the season ends to contemplate surgery!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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bigokie
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Re: Greener Empire ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #14182 - 01/05/04 09:01 AM

What do you think about starting with a 10 gauge shotgun. It's a Belgium made SxS by Centaure. It weighs almost 10 pounds already as a shotgun. Any ideas on this, could this go to 577 2 3/4??? Thanks

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