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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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Big_Sarge
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Reged: 26/06/08
Posts: 16
Loc: Mississippi
J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale
      #108603 - 30/06/08 11:57 PM

I'm not in position to buy this double 10 bore & I thought I would share the info. It is only going for $2,400. They have it listed as a shotgun, but look at the sights & 24 inch barrels.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=103057793

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: Big_Sarge]
      #108611 - 01/07/08 01:36 AM

really a nice gun, these are my thoughts on it.

stock is a dbl. rifle stock.

sights are a later addition, to my eye at least.

barrels are cut at one point, i would expect at least 28"

a 10 drams charge dont sound like a shotgun charge to me, i think it is a paradox rifle that has been toyed with, someone here should buy it so we can get some info about it.

best regards

peter

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: peter]
      #108615 - 01/07/08 02:06 AM

This may be a Paradox but I don't think it has been fooled with, other than the redue.

Peter My H&H Paradox has 24 inch barrels. More likely 28's if it was a shotgun.

I would be surprised if it was a rifle as I would think anyone would know that. Could always ask.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: mickey]
      #108617 - 01/07/08 02:32 AM

Thanks for the post.
I so wish I wasn't laid up in recovery, out of work, and not able to participate in this particular auction.
Damn.

If there's anyone here who'd bid, buy, handle/store/wait for me to get back on my feet again and buy it from them on the cheap, let me know...
















--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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JohnTheGreek
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: mickey]
      #108618 - 01/07/08 02:34 AM

The gun is a total dog that I wouldn't own if you paid me......anyone thinking of bidding should seriously reconsider! DEFINITELY DON'T BID!
.
.
.
.
OK, now for my true response. In all honesty, another forum member and I have been chatting about this weapon for a day or so. I actually thought about asking the seller to look closer and see if it had Metford type rifling...then I thought better of it. Whether it is rifled or not, it would still be a great smooth bore ball gun at the very least and worth every bit of the asking price. Helluva buffalo gun I think with a ten dram charge! I couldn't help but think, if the guy looks harder and sees rifling and then does a bit of digging, he may find an excuse to pull the auction and up the price in another one. Even though I am stragely attracted to this weapon, I am still always wary of guys selling what appears to be really nice stuff who "know nothing about it". hmmmm. Frankly, if the sights are original and the bbl is factory length at 24" she's a dandy at the current price.

John

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: tinker]
      #108619 - 01/07/08 02:40 AM

Furthermore, this rifle looks as if it's been refinished fairly recently.
I wonder if a 10bore J&W Tolley has 'gone missing' any time in the last three or four years.
I seem to recall some time not so long ago having seen a similar, similarly refinished gun...

It definitely looks like one of those 'too good to be true' kind of things.

I'd want to see the muzzles, clear shots of the bores, and the proofs.

The bores of a Tolley Ubique can be 'seen' by one who knows what to look for, much like the 'invisible rifling' of the Lancaster oval bore or other such smooth bore rifled guns.

This things definitely deserves a second look by someone with a couple grand in their pocket today.

I am very much interested to see what the hammer price will end up being on this one.

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: tinker]
      #108621 - 01/07/08 02:50 AM

Tinker

I might do that for you.

Or I might just keep it.

I wouldn't trust me.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: mickey]
      #108623 - 01/07/08 03:02 AM

Mikckey-

I'll stay in touch with you on that one.
Trust issues aside, I'm looking forward to seeing how and where that nice Tolley ends up.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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JohnTheGreek
.300 member


Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: tinker]
      #108624 - 01/07/08 03:11 AM

WORD FROM THE SELLER...."13 and 1/4 inch from the back of the orange part of the stock to the rear trigger". He may have messed that up, I had to explain to him what "length of pull" meant. Do the photos look that short to everyone else????

John

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JohnTheGreek
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Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #108625 - 01/07/08 03:15 AM

also from seller...

"The gun weighs 16 pounds and the barrel is more like 24 and a quarter inch".

more than the Ubique by 4 pounds.....thems rifle weights me thinks. hmmmm.

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #108626 - 01/07/08 03:36 AM

ubique shooting 8 drams of powder, this one shoots 10 drams.

this is a most exciting gun, please buy it someone!!!!!

peter

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JohnTheGreek
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Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: peter]
      #108627 - 01/07/08 03:43 AM

Think the 12 pound weight was for the 8 dram gun and 16 pound weight is for the 10 dram version. hmmmmm.....



Seller also told me that this gun was pawned at their shop and the guy lost it.....hmmmm.....

Who the heck pawns a weapon like this?!?!?!?!

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Big_Sarge
.224 member


Reged: 26/06/08
Posts: 16
Loc: Mississippi
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #108628 - 01/07/08 04:03 AM

I bid $2,502.00 on it, but it isn't enough. That's all I can afford right now. So, ya'll think it has been reworked from a shotgun?

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Big_Sarge
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Reged: 26/06/08
Posts: 16
Loc: Mississippi
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: Big_Sarge]
      #108629 - 01/07/08 04:07 AM

I just got a pm. Would the 10 drams marking indicate an 8 bore? They were referencing my earlier question about 8 bore prices

Ya'll, I can't go any higher on my bid. Maybe one of you can & tell us what this is.

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peter
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Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: Big_Sarge]
      #108630 - 01/07/08 04:29 AM

Quote:

So, ya'll think it has been reworked from a shotgun?



no i think it was a rifle that was worked into a shotgun, that load is not a shotgun load.

peter

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JohnTheGreek
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Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: peter]
      #108631 - 01/07/08 04:38 AM

Not to be argumentative but my take is that 16 pounds was probably the standard weight for the heavy charge regulated 10 bore version of the gun pictured above. I doubt very much that a rifle bored out to a shotgun would still weigh 16 pounds. That is probably the factory weight of whatever we are looking at. Think about it this way.....even if she is a reworked smooth bore currently, she's much more interesting buffalo medicine than a base model double like a Chapuis 9,3...which costs about the same as the current high bid.

JMHO,

John

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peter
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Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #108632 - 01/07/08 04:44 AM

if it werent in the us i would buy it in a heartbeat, even at the 5.300,-

peter

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JohnTheGreek
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Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: peter]
      #108633 - 01/07/08 04:51 AM

OH, THE DRAMA ! ! ! !

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philbert
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Reged: 31/12/07
Posts: 45
Loc: INDIANA,USA
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #108634 - 01/07/08 04:59 AM

I just threw in the towel. Bob

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JohnTheGreek
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Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: philbert]
      #108636 - 01/07/08 05:18 AM

OK....who won it ?!?!?!?!

Nobody here?

well then....

Epilogue: I sent the seller an email congratulating him and politely asking the inevitable though not so subtle question, "gee, did you know what you had?" since his reserve was so far below the final price. His response was simply, "we took it in on pawn". He also revealed (this response was obviously unsolicited) how much he was into the weapon and well....from the previous statement, you can just imagine about what that number might have been. If he is to be beleived, that is just INCREDIBLE... but it goes to show that there are deals to be had out there.

John

Edited by JohnTheGreek (01/07/08 06:00 AM)

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peter
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Posts: 1493
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Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #108637 - 01/07/08 06:04 AM

it did get a fair price though.

peter

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JohnTheGreek
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Reged: 16/11/04
Posts: 167
Loc: Cairo, Egypt
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: peter]
      #108639 - 01/07/08 06:15 AM

I think so too....for all concerned. A good value for the buyer I think, even if the weapon proves to have some "issues" upon inspection. Wish someone here was the buyer. It'd be nice to know the "rest of the story" someday.

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8borerifle
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Reged: 15/04/08
Posts: 89
Loc: Ohio,USA
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: JohnTheGreek]
      #108641 - 01/07/08 06:52 AM

Here is the straight skinny on this rifle. It is an 8-bore full rifle weighing 16 lbs. It was owned by my brother who had it restocked by Russ Wilson years ago. The metal work was all done my Nick Mackinson in Canada. The barrels are 24" long and not cut. My brother never shot it, but the next owner did and he could not extract the cases. The chambers were not tapered and had to be reworked so it has larger than normal chambers. I was told it would not regulate. Not trying to do downgrade the rifle, just what I know. It is an impressive rifle, Mackinson's engraver added the gold in the name and recut the engraving. My brother had over $5,000.00 in the work done. I bid on the rifle, but was worried about it being stolen so stopped at $7,000.00. I believe it was a 3" paper case rifle with .835 bores. I had a Holland 8-bore double rifle finished at the same time. (sold it like an idiot!) My brother originally bought it from an old Dr. at the Ohio Gun Collectors show many years ago for $3,500.00. The pull by the way was 14 1/2"
By the way Old Sarge, thanks for your service to our country and hope you find a rifle.

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tinkerModerator
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: Big_Sarge]
      #108643 - 01/07/08 07:55 AM

Just got home from some Rx appointments...

Seeing what's here in the thread since my last note and the note from 8bore and a quick visit to the GB site, it appears the (rifle) hammered at a price relative to it's -now candidly given to this thread- condition.

Given this isn't some 'nuther detail' in a lost/stolen gun story, it looks like someone's gotten themselves a good handful of big bore project.
If I'd known the story ahead of time (and was a tad more prepared for the moment) I would definitely have put that much down for this rifle.

A trip to JJ for a few pieces of custom brass and a re-regulation will have this rifle up and running and up in value lickety-split (given the soup-to-nuts restore wasn't a cover for swollen chambers earned through someone shoving 1250gr hardcast conicals and full cases of FFFg downbore shortly before the restoration -- full restrike,polish,brown of the barrels could hide a multitude of sins...).

As a Big Fan and proud owner of J&W Tolley product, I'll say I'm just a bit jealous of whoever ended up getting this nice double.
If it ends up that this is a lost gun story, I hope whoever's missing it took good care to document and report the loss in proper due time.



--Tinker
(edited to reflect tinker's ponderings of mystery around this gun's ill regulation)

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

Edited by tinker (01/07/08 10:22 AM)

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: J&W Tolley 10 Bore for sale [Re: mickey]
      #108653 - 01/07/08 09:27 AM

Quote:



Peter My H&H Paradox has 24 inch barrels.



Mickey,

Check the barrel length on your paradox. I would be surprised if they were not 27". If they are shorter, please let me know.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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