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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing

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Birdhunter50
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Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Beretta 45-70 and 20 Gauge Bore Rifles
      #108506 - 29/06/08 11:35 PM

Gentlemen,
These are pictures of my last double rifle project gun, finished this spring. It is a 45/70 on a Beretta frame. It has 26 inch barrels and an articulated front trigger. It is fitted with a three leaf sight with one standing and two folding leaves. The stock was turned from a nice piece of curley Bastogne Walnut and has a Pachmyr recoil pad mounted on it.
The best part is, it will put two,(one L.and one R.), inside one inch if I do my part. I have recently fitted it with a scope but will probably not use it during hunting season. Bob H.





Edited by Birdhunter50 (10/07/08 01:26 AM)


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450_366
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #108508 - 29/06/08 11:36 PM

Nice rifle, whats the weight?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: 450_366]
      #108511 - 29/06/08 11:51 PM

It weighs 8 pounds without the scope mounted, about 9 pounds with the scope on it. Bob H.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #108512 - 30/06/08 12:02 AM

That's a great looking rifle.

We would welcome details of your conversion with more photos of the rifle and its unique features.

Thnaks,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Birdhunter50
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: CptCurl]
      #108516 - 30/06/08 01:26 AM

Curl,
Here are a few more picturs of the gun and one of some of the tools I use during regulation. I used the monoblock method to joint the barrels. The top rib was purchased from Tom Ondrus and modified and the rear sight came from NECG I believe. I don't know what other details you are interested in but if you could ask me something more specific, I will try and answer your questions. Bob H.






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450_366
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #108531 - 30/06/08 07:20 AM

I see that you built a proper tool to twist the barrels, do you leave the adjustable pin floating or do you bolt it tight?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: 450_366]
      #108533 - 30/06/08 08:41 AM

Andreas, I tighten it when I get it where I want it set. I made it so there could be other sleeves put on for the different bore sizes, but I have not needed them, this pair just fits down a .458 barrel but I have also used them on 20 gauge bore rifles. If I ever do something really big or something smaller than .458 then I will have to make other sleeves. Bob H.

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tarawa
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #108545 - 30/06/08 10:49 AM

Bob,
Very nice gun.

--------------------
Life is for Service


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: tarawa]
      #108559 - 30/06/08 12:48 PM

Thanks to all who responded to this post, I respect and appreciate all your good comments. The recognition of my fellow gunbuilders is very important to me. Bob H.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #108561 - 30/06/08 12:54 PM

I forgot to mention that the scope mount is a double dovetail twist-in mount that was designed for the Smith and Wesson pistols. I cut a chanel in the bottom of it at a slight downward angle so it would straddle the rib and attached it with the three allen head screws that it came with. It is hellasiously strong but the scope must be removed to get it unmounted from the gun. It is a good setup if you are not needing to switch back and forth with the scope. Bob H.

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Ironscot
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #108608 - 01/07/08 12:46 AM

Bob,

That's a beautiful rifle. If you need a test driver, I know where several pigs are that need to be dealt with. (nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean)

I'm certainly a far cry from an expert on these matters, so don't take my questions as criticism in any way please. Just trying to fill the gaps in my knowledge. I've been bitten hard by the bug and am trying to fill in all the gaps before I start chopping up guns like a madman.

I'm kind of curious about how it balances with the 26 inch barrels. Most of the DRs in that caliber that I've seen are anywhere from half to two inches shorter. I'm sure there's a reason and I'm just too nosey to not ask.

This is probably neither here nor there, but why do folks not TIG over the non-essential information remaining on the monoblocks then clean it up when they strike the barrels? I've noticed this on several gun to rifle conversions and it's more just worrisome to me like a loose tooth than a functional issue obviously.

I am curious about your stock work also. I really like the classic contour that you have used and would like to hear more about your stocking process.

Nice work!

Bret


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Dogdigger
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Ironscot]
      #108620 - 01/07/08 02:47 AM

The fit and finish look great. well done. you paid alot of attention to detail and it shows.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Ironscot]
      #108666 - 01/07/08 12:53 PM

Bret,
I do love a good pork roast, and if you've got the hogs located I think I've got the fixins for em! I will try and answer your questions in order. First the 26 inch barrels, they are that length because a fellow came by the shop one day before I got them shortened to the planned 24 inch length. He told me that he thought I should leave them at 26 inches and I thought at the time he might be interested in buying it when it was finished, so I left them at 26 inches. They are thin enough at the muzzles that they don't throw the balance off at all and I get the benefit of a little extra sighting radius plus some extra speed. The gun balances at one inch ahead of the hinge pin with the scope mounted and about the same with it off.
The tig welding does sound like a good idea, at least on the surface,no pun intended), however, I don't have a tig welder myself, and the place that I have do tig welding for me has created a few problems for me in the past. Don't ask me how they did it but some items I have had them weld up in the past( triggerguards,etc.), have come out with tiny air holes in the welded areas. The guy who did it blamed the metal or implyed that it either had oil on it or was contaminated by the previous bluing job. Not knowing all that much about tig welding, I didn't argue with him but I know that there was no oil on it, at least. I have also noticed that when his brother does the welding for me there are never any air holes. If you decide to do that and carefully buff or sand all bluing off and do the welding to the monoblock before you fit the barrels, I see no reason why it won't work. Many times I can just strike off the writing with a file if it is not too deep but you don't want to go too deep or you will weaken the wall of the monoblock. It also has to be kept to the right conture as it is filed which is not always practical. I never try and remove the manufacturers name or any other identifying marks.
If you are really interested in the way this was stocked, send me a PM and I will be glad to discuss it with you. Bob H.


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dale
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #108942 - 04/07/08 06:26 PM

Hey Bob,

You made a beautiful rifle. The metal to metal fit is great. How did you finish the muzzle? Did you make a new extractor or build on to the existing one? I'm glad to hear your remarks about the welding. It has about drove us crazy trying to get tig & mig work done. I'm next door to a fabricationg shop and they have screwed up just about every job they tried but to be honest they were tough jobs. They say they don't understand unless it's the steel that is in the guns because welds wont hold or they burn through in places or once we try to file down the welds there are bad bugholes or the welds show through rust bluing. I would like to have the monoblock tigged up where the bbl. lines show but I'm afraid they'll burn though where the sideclips are or into the chambers. :^( I always heard tigg was the cat's meow but we sure have had less than perfect results.

love the jigs


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4seventyModerator
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #108946 - 04/07/08 08:28 PM

Birdhunter,
Nice work indeed, well done!


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: 4seventy]
      #108958 - 04/07/08 11:39 PM

Thanks guys for you nice comments. Dale- As you say, tig welding has been a mixed blessing for me. I have had to take a part back out to them as many as 5 time to try and get it built up enough or to fill holes. One of the brothers who does my welding is very consciencious and tries hard to give me just what I want, the other one acts like I am a bother to him and he is the one who gives me fits. I always pay them well, in cash, for whatever they do for me, usually during a slow day or during their break. I'm not sure if this has any bearing on the quality of the work, but they are always using cut wire from the wire welder to flow into the parts they tig weld for me. It has a coating on it that I figured would just melt off and burn away, but maybe it doesn't. To their credit, both of them have been real good about re-doing welds and patching up things for me. I never have to pay them twice. I have not had aqny problem bluing over their welds.

I think tig welding COULD be the answer to all our welding problems but whoever does it needs to understand it completely and be very proficient at before good results can be expected from it. I really think that most of the problems I have had have been due to not setting the heat right on the machine. The kinds of small parts I have had welded should not have taken too much heat to fuse things together.

One problem I encountered was strictly my own fault, I turned out a filler ring to have tig welded into the extractor cut outs to build them up. Without thinking, I used a piece of old Mauser barrel as donor material. After welding that thing was HARD ! I annealed it but it was still stubborn to cut the new grooves in it. Bob H.


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oupa
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #108966 - 05/07/08 12:21 AM

Beautiful work Bob. Did you do the checkering? Very nice.

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tinker
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #108971 - 05/07/08 01:12 AM

Bob-

First thing I want to note is that you're presenting yourself and this rifle as a very good example for the men out there who are on the fence as to whether or not to take such a project on -- you've done a really good looking job on your rifle and this will certainly affect the way some guys will view the possibility of building their own doublerifle form a shotgun action.

Next, on tig welding...
I'm a highly qualified welder, tig is one of many processes that I command with relative ease.
You need to ditch your welding shop and find a new welder.

Your profile doesn't tell me where you live, if you can tell me what area, or better yet what city you live in I can do a little searching for you and point you in the direction of where to look for a welding/engineering shop suitable for the kind of work you're doing.
It's clear to me that the guys you've been going to are WAY below your standard and to an extent pose a risk to you and your work.

That just is.

Furthermore, I have a good sense you would likely be a good candidate for training on a fast-track schedule, and if you were to take the interest you could become a very good welder - tig or otherwise- in a relatively short time if you wanted to go there.
You could get into a tig machine much better than good enough for the work you need done in the $800-1800 range.
Consider it.

Seriously consider ditching the welding shop you've been patronizing.




--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Bramble
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: tinker]
      #108980 - 05/07/08 03:12 AM

Tinker.

I am not a specialist welder by any means, so this is a question rather than retoric.

Is there not an embrittlement problem if one welds 4140 or 4130 ? (which many of the bases for conversions if they are modern are)

I had been told that it require pre and post welding heat treatment. Has somebody been slinging me a line of BS ?

Regards


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Bramble]
      #108990 - 05/07/08 05:13 AM

Tinker,
I have considered buying a tig but never came across one in that price range, yet. I would like to learn how it is done and I have read up on it some but for right now I have decided there are things that I need that are more important for me right now. For instance, I have a small shop in a 1 1/2 car garage. It has been too small from the beginning and is getting more and more crowded as time passes. I need to put an addition onto the shop before I consider getting any more equiptment of any kind. I do appreciate your good advice though, and I think I have found a fellow who will teach me the basics of Tig welding if I can find a machine and the time to learn it. It is a valueable skill to have and it would be very handy for me to be able to do my own welding. I live in southern Iowa, just so you will have a reference. Bob H.


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: oupa]
      #108991 - 05/07/08 05:19 AM

Thanks Oupa,
Yes, I did my own checkering, but I'm not real good at it and I hate doing it. It is just one of those things you have to do to build a rifle yourself. I think I spent about four days doing it, on and off. My back gets to bothering me if I work at it too long. 2 or 3 hours is my maximum, after that I get tired and start making mistakes so it pays to quit earlier than that. Bob H.


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: tinker]
      #108992 - 05/07/08 05:26 AM

Tinker, Can you give me some idea of what is causing the pinholes in the tig welds that we get sometimes? I really would like to figure that one out. One of the two brothers was telling me that he thought he had figured out how to get better welds on the small items that they sometimes weld for me, but I'm not sure if it had do do with turning the heat down or doing something with the polatity, maybe? Is that possible to do with a Tig? Everything I take them is claen and polished enough to be sure there are no foriegn particles in the welded area, so I know it is not the parts that are contaminating the welds. Bob H.

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Birdhunter50
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: 4seventy]
      #108993 - 05/07/08 05:30 AM

4seventy,
Thanks for the kind remarks, your oppinion means alot to me. Bob H.


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xsheadspace
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #109350 - 09/07/08 11:02 PM

Really nice checkering! I hate to do it, myself. I can only do about 1 1/2 hr before I get crosseyed, hunchbacked, and totally nutz from the stress of not screwing up. Carbide pull stroke cutters, I found to be the best at not running over. That diamond in the foreend is calling for an ebony inlay.....

--------------------
hippie redneck geezer


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Birdhunter50
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Re: Beretta 45/70 [Re: xsheadspace]
      #109359 - 10/07/08 01:03 AM

Xsheadspace,
If you like inlay work, here is one for you to look over. This is a 20 gauge bore rifle built on a 12 gauge Beretta frame. Some joker had put a screw eye in the forend which I foolishly decided that I could save. It took more work than just making a new beavertail forend , but it does have a unique look about it. I put the tip inlay on it just to make it look more uniform. The inlays were made from black Buffalo horn. This gun has 22 inch barrels and weighs in a 7.5 pounds. The stock is curley Claro Walnut from California. Why is it that the people on the left coast have all the best wood? Bob H.









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