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DarylS
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #101167 - 02/04/08 06:47 AM

Rod- the Swiss rancher we stay with when gopher shooting, uses the Savage .22 Hornet for his stock shooting. 40gr.HP in the mellon does the trick - except on one old bull - just knocked himout. Franz runs a butcher shop on the ranch - everything from alpacka's to beef, moose, elk, bear and deer - whatever's in season - HA!

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: DarylS]
      #101192 - 02/04/08 11:16 AM

Quote:

Rod- the Swiss rancher we stay with when gopher shooting, uses the Savage .22 Hornet for his stock shooting. 40gr.HP in the mellon does the trick - except on one old bull - just knocked himout. Franz runs a butcher shop on the ranch - everything from alpacka's to beef, moose, elk, bear and deer - whatever's in season - HA!




That should work like a lightswitch.

One of the mobile butchers in our area uses a Marlin 57 in .22 Mag, a rare levergun. He uses it on beef cattle docile enough to come in to a pan of grain and under those circumstances it works just fine.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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bwananelson
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #101284 - 03/04/08 03:10 AM

WORKED ON THE KILL FLOOR FOR AWHILE FOR MY EX FATHER INLAW AND USED A 22 WE MADE PET FOOD AND PROVIDED THE PHILADELPHIA ZOO WITH LION FOOD.IT TOOK EVERYTHING DOWN.THE FIRST HORSE WENT IN EASY BUT THE SMELL OF BLOOD GOT THE REST A LITTLE SPOOKY.COWS WERE NO PROBLEM.WE SOLD FRESH DOG FOOD AT THE TIME TO THIS DAY I WONT FEED MY DOGS CANNED DOG FOOD THATS WHERE WER SOLD NEEDLED AND TAINTED MEAT TO.

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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9.3x57
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: bwananelson]
      #101330 - 03/04/08 09:02 AM

Bwananelson, not exactly on a kill floor, but here's our L'il Stubby in use today, about the only use it gets;





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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #101334 - 03/04/08 10:03 AM

The Swiss rancher used to use a BRNO .22 with CCI Stingers. They're the only .22LR that would consistantly punch through the heads of his herfords.
; After trying the Hornet, he never used the .22 again.
: Silvia also uses the Hornet on cattle. I think she's actually a better shot than he is. She's certainly a better cook - HA! and a LOT Prettier.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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bwananelson
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: DarylS]
      #101352 - 03/04/08 10:59 AM

HAD MY BOYS BUCK HE KILLED IN DEC MEASURED 162 7/8 IT BROKE THE COUNTY RECORD HERE IN FLORIDA THAT HAS BEEN STANDING SINCE 1932,HE USED A LEVER ACTION OPEN SIGHTED ROSSI 44 MAG LEVER ACTION.DEER WIEGHED 195 LBS AND HAD 15 SCOREABLE POINTS.WILL BE IN THE TOP TEN FOR THE STATE OF FLORIDA THIS YEAR, WILL SEE HOW IT FARES IN THE STATES BIG BUCK CONTEST.THEY HAVE TAKEN MANY HEADS OF GAME IF YOU TALK WHICH HAS TAKEN MORE I DONT KNOW WHO THE WINNER WOULD BE THEY FED ALOT OF MOUTHS OVER HISTORY.

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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9.3x57
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: bwananelson]
      #101353 - 03/04/08 11:12 AM

Daryl:

A lot prettier? You're not supposed to notice. Keep your eyes on your work!

Bwana:

IMO, the hunting racket is 20% about our own achievement and 80% about passing it on to our kids. Darn good show to your son...and you!

And a lever .44 to-boot!

{BTW: What load??}

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: DarylS]
      #101429 - 03/04/08 08:58 PM

Daryl - I used to do the same thing at a friend's place in Zim but with a 22LR lever action(generally frontal brain shots only). Very effective!

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mickey
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Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #101493 - 04/04/08 08:49 AM

Quote:

Rod- the Swiss rancher we stay with when gopher shooting,




Daryl

This wouldn't be the guy that owns or owned the Teepee Heart out of Big Creek would it?

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Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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dnovo
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: jimincolo]
      #101501 - 04/04/08 10:23 AM

Very little wrong with a Marlin 1895 in a 45-70 or 450 for Black Bear and for fast follow up. ("Don't stand there and admire the first shot, dummy, chamber and fire another and then rechamber, or you'll be looking out from his insides!") Okay, I was very young, very green, and very wet behind the ears, and in the crotch as well when everything settled down.

The are a few Amerian custom shops that rebuild, shorten, slick the inner workings, refinish the metal in various low vis/non-corrosion finishes, and rechamber the 1895s for the 450 an 500 Alaskan rounds. The result is a dead reliable, and very hard hitting (at both ends)and despite the dislike by some of muzzle brakes, recommend the bruising of the ears to the inability to control the second round. Damn nice guns, and what I would chose for close quarters for America's most dangerous game. (Gary Reeder also chambers for a variety of big bore and his own propriety cartridges - www.reedercustomguns.com I am also told that several of those have gone to Africa and have proven fairly successful on thin skinned game including some with big teeth and bad attitudes in heavy cover. Can't say for sure, never tried it.

In any event, and American traditional arm that is not dead yet and seems to have plenty of life based on the waiting lists I have seen. Dave

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Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (04/04/08 10:27 AM)


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szihn
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: dnovo]
      #101503 - 04/04/08 10:40 AM

My friend John has a Browning 1886 45-70 carbine he's trying to sell. Excellent shape. If anyone wants it, let me know and I'll put you in touch.
He's asking $900


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bwananelson
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: szihn]
      #101512 - 04/04/08 11:30 AM

9 it was a plain old factory load the jokes on me when he bought it i sad what the hell do you need that for.crow taste pretty good broiled.he almost caught up to me when i lived in pennsylvania i arrowed a buck that scored 169 1/2.i am just lucky alot but just lucky its was god that let me do so well.

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THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: bwananelson]
      #101663 - 05/04/08 04:38 PM

I'm betting not many people have heard of the uniquely Australian-designed and built lever-action rifle: the Fieldman!
Designed by Merv Naughton and manufactured at Aarrandite in Victoria.



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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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buckeyeshooter
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Reged: 04/02/04
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: jimincolo]
      #102362 - 13/04/08 07:16 AM

I have 12 traditional levers in my gun safe. I generally grab one right away when deer hunting. I have a full range of bolt guns also, however, for hunting in thick cover or area where shots are no longer than 150 yards the lever seems ideal. They are lighter than bolt guns, can be very powerful in a small package (like my 50 alaskan) and balance well. They are also easy to pack on a horse or quad. Of course part of my 'bias' might be the fact I started shooting one 42 years ago.

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tarawa
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: buckeyeshooter]
      #104648 - 10/05/08 12:59 AM

I killed my first white tail with an old (1920's) Winchester Model 94 in 32 Winchester Special. Later in life I switched to a bolt action rifle. I moved to Florida 20 years ago and sold most of my hunting rifles. The hunting bug hit me again and I went back to the basics. I have two vintage Winchesters in 32 Special, one Marlin 1894 in 32-20 and an Ithaca Model 49 single shot .22. I will be switching again to a double rifle...but that is another story.

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Life is for Service


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reflex264
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: tarawa]
      #106435 - 01/06/08 02:16 PM

Without wanting to start a war I find it interesting that despite the fact that the 45-70 lever actions go to Africa on a regular basis and using good ammo seem to work fine on anything they are pointed at they still are not considered by many to be adequate. This pic was from a buff kill using a 45-70 Brockman custom Marlin using Garrett Cartridge 540gr ammo. This gent is going after the big 6 with this set up. Another hunter is going after the big 6 this year and the safari is going to be filmed for television. I regularly hunt with lever guns of all descriptions and have a rifle at Brockmans as I type that I plan on taking to Africa in 2010. The may be a mainstay in America with a bunch of them still used around here but they can certainly take on the world. reflex264



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reflex264
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: reflex264]
      #106436 - 01/06/08 02:21 PM

Here is another one. Big bear meets lever action. reflex264



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szihn
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: reflex264]
      #106455 - 01/06/08 11:40 PM

I hunt in "grizzly country" ever year. We have LOTS of them here.

It's interesting to me that one of the biggest sellers at the sporting goods stores in Wyoming is the Marlin 1895.
We don't have many "professional writers" living in Wyoming, but if you look at what the locals like in the mountains around here, the 45-70s are pretty common. The carry in the hand or in a saddle scabbard well, and they do a super good job on anything at close to medium range.
For dangerous animals "close range" is the only range that's important.
No animal is dangerous until it can touch you.


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Bramble
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: reflex264]
      #106457 - 02/06/08 12:24 AM

I do not wish to get into a war either.

Whilst the 45-70 in some of the new loadings is far better than CIP/SAMMI specs, it is running on the ragged edge for the rifles in which it is being utilised. They are hand/custom loads.
Calibers that are generally considered "adaquate" do so with factory spec ammo.
LA rifles when brought up to 4000flbs are dammed unpleasent to shoot, they are light for that sort of power. I've shot a 7 1/2 lb .450 LA and I would much prefer my 11 1/4 lb 450#2

The lever action design ( I have several in smaller calibers and indeed compete internationaly with them) is more prone to jamming than say a DR or a Mauser. It does not have the camming power for sticky extraction. Look at the volumes written about the dreaded "Marlin jam" It is not in my opinion a good DG rifle for that reason.

Great penetration (by 45-70 standards) is being achieved by what are to all intents and purpose flat nosed solids. However they are not as good as one will get from a .375 of even .275 with solids.

The use of flat noses is mandated in LA rifles, thus they will not range out as one can with BA designs using RN or Spitzers. Due to the stock design they are generally not MOA rifles either compounded by the temperature changes in Africa.Thus they are not great plains game rifles. They fall short of the 458+ cal classic DG rifles in stopping power at end of barrel distences so they are not the perfect choice here.

Thus for me they are neither fish or fowl.

Looking at the Buff photo, that rifle is running what looks like a 3-9 x 40 scope. Most of the posters here know how a lot of safaris are being conducted in terms of shooting from prepared hides and vehicles. So yes a 45-70 marlin is fine for a head shot from a fixed position, but so would a 30-30, .358 etc etc. That old boy clearly was prepared for exactly the type of shot he took. With the greatest of respect to him, If he could chase buff around the bush for a few hours I will eat my hat.

The 45-70 and LA guns generally are rightly popular because of the nostalga factor, as are some of the old British calibers that posters here love to hunt with.
I think that it is great to hunt with whatever gives you most pleasure and of course they will kill along with the best given correct bulet placment and good fieldcraft. And in a lot of ways it is an achievment to get that trophy with a less than ideal caliber.

But when one waxes lyrical about "adaquate" it is really about what one wants in ones hands when TSHTF or when the trophy of a lifetime is 250 yards off and for me at least that is not a LA.

But if it about what one wants when a nasty pack of feral dogs either human or canine approaches I will take my .357 Marlin every time, ten aimed shots in 5 seconds will get the job done..but I don't want to hunt with one that has been hotted up to do what it was not designed for.

Regards


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szihn
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: Bramble]
      #106493 - 02/06/08 12:34 PM

Bramble, I have to correct you here.
No disrespect is meant at all, but i feel I should explane myself here.

I am the man that stated the Cast Performance bullet Company. It was started by me and a man named Joe Gaunt in Gardnerville Nevada, and it was moved to Yerington Nevada in 1992. (to be 100% fair here, I must state that the name "Cast Performance" was Joe's 100%. I names it Carson Valley Cast, which was changed in 92 Joe became the owner of the company when I bowed out, and gave it to him, and it was his Grandfather that funded it, and go it off the ground in a much larger way)

I stayed on a the ballistician and "tec" for several years. I took over the company again in 1999 and was the CEO for that year, until it could be re-organized and "put back into the black"

I tell you this so it's right out front that I am not someone the "read an article" or "thinks they know something".

I have fired thousands of rounds of 45-70 and tens of thousands of rounds of many other calibers in my carrier. I am someone that is on a 2nd barrel in my 375H&H because I shot the throat out of the 1st one, and that rifle was NOT USED FOR MUCH TESTING. That's all from honest shooting in the field!

I don't even know how many thousands of rounds I have fired in a 7mm mauser, but it's a lot. I and on MY 3rd barrel in my 270 Winchester (again, NOT used as a test gun, but all from honest use in the field) I have had to rebarrel three 45 autos, two 44 magnums, one 357, and one 223.
I have put some noteworthy wear on many other rifles and pistols too.

Now with all that said, I will promise you faithfully that a 45-70 with the correct bullet at 1600 FPS will out penitrate a 375 buy a long margin.
I LOVE LOVE LOVE my 375. It's my absolute favorite all around rifle, but I am not going to lie about it. The 45-70 with 460gr and 485 gr bullets would go through about 2X more meat and bone then my best 375 with the best 300 gr solid.

The 375 walks away from the 7mm Mauser and the 270 winchester.
So make no mistake.
The 45-70 is not in any way inferior to the 375 except in flatness of trajectory.

And don't kid yourself about how well it killed either.
In my experience on animals of 500-1000 pounds the 375 seems a bit quicker in putting the game on the ground, but I am talking about seconds only. And very few seconds.
It is not as hard hitting as a 458 or a 460, but it will penitrate as well and sometime even better. It just doesn't make as large a wound channel as a 458 does for the 1st 2 feet of so.

I have not seen many problems with good lever rifles jamming, but I think that if they were 'tested to destruction" the Mauser and the double would last longer, But again, I think you'd have to shoot more than I have to prove it...............

And as i stated above, not many men that I know have shot more rounds than I have. I know there are some, but other than lifetime armoriors in the military, I don't know many. I don’t know ANYONE that’s done more with as many different calibers. There are doubtlessly some, but I have not met them yet.

Edited by szihn (02/06/08 12:44 PM)


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reflex264
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: szihn]
      #106494 - 02/06/08 12:50 PM

szihn, I have shot a pile of Cast Performance bullets. Very good indeed. Here is a group shot with the 460gr .458



As far as testing and penetration you may already be familier with the testing I did. Very impressed with the bullets. I did discover a couple of circumstances that the 300gr solids from the .375 out penetrated the 460gr in media but in those circumstances the 460gr rmoved a ton more media from my ballistic buff. I am the one that did the actual pressure tests with the 460gr and sent them to Kelly to hand out to customers. Small world. reflex264


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reflex264
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: reflex264]
      #106495 - 02/06/08 12:54 PM

Here are some links to some of my tests.


http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,21559.0.html

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php/topic,17305.0.html

Edited by reflex264 (02/06/08 01:01 PM)


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szihn
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: reflex264]
      #106497 - 02/06/08 01:03 PM

Small world indeed.

What year did you start using our bullets? I started the company in 89 in Nevada, and it was moved to Wyoming in 94. I hired Kelly in 99. He took over as manager when I quit and went back to gunsmithing in 2000 and bought the controlling interest from Milt Pugsley in 2002

What was the velocity of your load, and when media did you use?
Was you media at point blank or at 100 yds?

One thing that's not known by many is that our biggest bullets were the hand cast 540 grain WFNGCs and when they were fired at 1450 FPS they went DEEPER than they did when they impacted at 1900 FPS.
The faster load made larger diameter wounds in buffalo, and cavities in media, but they didn't ever go as deep. This is owing to the fact that liquids can't be compressed, and the slower bullets move meat and media out of the way, and the faster ones "splash it".
Once you get through and through wounds, trying to get more penetration is a moot effort. That's why cavitations is important too, but I am only pointing out to the readers the facts The idea that 45-70 won't penitrate like a 375 is just not true.

Steve Zihn


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reflex264
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: szihn]
      #106499 - 02/06/08 01:48 PM

I probably use the first ones around the time you started the company in my .45 Blackhawk. I loved them. I may have even spoke to you on the phone about that time. I have more test data to post and am currently involved in another series of tests using jacketed bullets in the 45-70s and .450. When I first did the test with the 460gr I shot them 1840fps. Huge media damage but less penetration. I slowed them down to 1700 or so in the .450 and they out penetrated the .375 solids handily. I figured I could slow them a bit more and penetrate farther but trajectory was a concern since I used the same loads for hunting deer. Took a whitetail doe at 184 yards with one of hte 460grs. I shot these 15' from the muzzle. The velocity around 1700 seemed to be the best of both worlds. The load with H335 averaged 1728fps and consistently shot groups like the one I posted. I load the 255gr .429 in .44 Special cases over a stiff charge of U-Clays and from my scoped 441T Taurus target model shoot 1.5" groups at 100 yards. I have been wondering how Kelly is doing of late. The data I worked up and sent him was with Benchmark so if you wonder where that pressure data came from now you know. reflex264

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szihn
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Re: Lever actions, uniquely American hunting rifles? [Re: reflex264]
      #106506 - 02/06/08 03:22 PM

Last I heard Kelly was in Alaska. He sold Cast Performance to a man in Oregon, and it's unknown to me what's happened since then (other than the prices going through the roof)

If you ever called Cast Performance before 93 you have definitely talked to me. If after 94, but before 2000, you probably have talked to me.

The bullets are everything I said they were. I am saddened that they are so had to get now, so expensive and that the line of bullets has been cut down by so many.
Steve


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