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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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heers68
.300 member


Reged: 11/04/08
Posts: 127
Loc: north carolina
Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf
      #102247 - 12/04/08 12:47 AM

Hello folks,this is my first post here and I would like to say that I am very impressed with your forum and the knowledgable people here! I hope I can add to it with the knowledge I have amassed over the years about these fine firearms!
Know on with my post and queastions.I have a 1936 Sempert & Kieghoff Drilling "Trumpf" model in 16-16 and 8x57 JR. I love this gun,the workmanship and mechanics of this drilling are in my oppinion second to none! This drilling is a pretty typical prewar Sempert + Krieghoff except for the layout of the buttstock,instead of having the usual cartridge magazine under the tow of the butt it has a blued and engraved buttplate with a trap door opening on an internal chamber that holds a 22LR insert(also made by Sempert and Krieghoff) for the right shot barrel. There is also spaces for two 8x57 cartridges and two 22 rounds,also a slot for the key tha tightens the 22 insert in the shot barrel or in the stock cavity. I havent seen any other drillings with this butt treatment,HAVE ANY OF YOU GUYS SEEN OR OWN ONE LIKE THIS?? I imagin it was a S&K factory option?OPPINIONS? This drilling has an extra folding rear sight on the rib,(for the 22 insert? What do you guys think??)
This drilling also has the integral low profile "Sempert & Krieghoff Montage" scope mounts in the rib. I will show the uppers I bought on line from Austria that I believe to be original S&K uppers. They do not fit the bases but are VERY close and I thought these were probably all hand fitted at the factory. ANY info on these mounts and different ways you guys have mounted scopes on them would be VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!! Or info on who could do the hand fitting of my uppers and sweating them to a scope!
I am attaching lots of pics of this gun and some other german sporting goodies I have.(yes I love to play show and tell1guess I,m a show off,HA!)No fun having cool stuff if you cant share it! WELL Good meeting you guys and PLEASE give oppinions and ANY info on my queastions. talk later.. Kevin.

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degoins
.333 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 434
Loc: SC, USA
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: heers68]
      #102257 - 12/04/08 02:20 AM

I'm sorry to say that I cant answer any of your questions, but I must thank you for sharing that magnificent piece of workmanship.

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: heers68]
      #102260 - 12/04/08 02:24 AM

The Kreighoff-Patentmagazin (stock magazine) you describe was a factory feature offered by the H. Krieghoff company after WW II, and for all I know may still be available. The post-War version involved a detachable buttplate, however, rather than a trap like the one installed in your drilling.

The purpose of the auxiliary rear sight is a little unclear, since the insert barrels were usually adjusted to a point of impact identical with that of the larger rifle caliber, so that the scope could be used with both the regular and insert barrel.

You are undoubtedly correct that the scope mount was a hand fitted arrangement and would therefore the bases would not be interchangeable from one scope to another. Perhaps some hand fitting might correct the situation, unless the spacing of the rings makes this impossible.

I trust you are aware of the need for using properly sized (.318" diameter) bullets in your 8X57 JR rifle barrel, rather than the more common .323" bullets.

You have a fine drilling, in every respect that I can see identical with the post war offering of the Krieghoff company, even to the engraving. Congratulations, and welcome to the forum!

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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: heers68]
      #102265 - 12/04/08 04:37 AM

What a beauty!

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heers68
.300 member


Reged: 11/04/08
Posts: 127
Loc: north carolina
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102273 - 12/04/08 08:48 AM

THANKS for responses guys!

Xausa, I thought I would post some more pics on the subject of the .318 VS .323 JR for this drilling. Posted chamber markings and rounds I have presently. I have also fired 8 of these,so I hope they are right! box does not have these measurements listed anywhere. Any comments appreciated.

Also posting pics of my scope mount uppers that I believe to be Krieghoff. These are little works of art all by themselves! Also the scope I would like to mount in these. All comments appreciated! Kevin.

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Nakihunter
.375 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: heers68]
      #102276 - 12/04/08 09:04 AM

Beautiful rifle. Thanks for sharing & welcome to the site.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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m4220
.300 member


Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 234
Loc: wa
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: heers68]
      #102282 - 12/04/08 09:48 AM

Hi Kevin,
Very nice! You are in same dillema as a lot of us in trying to refit these old guns with vintage scopes of the era. Lee LaBass of L&L enterprises in Nevada does a lot of this type work and he does good work but it's not fast or cheap, I have also heard that New England Custom guns does this type of work although I haven't had any thing done by them in the way of scopes fitting so I cannot comment but these are a couple of leads for you to start with. Good luck.

m4220

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JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: m4220]
      #102324 - 12/04/08 09:45 PM

Your barrel stamp photo shows 7,8mm and 57. I believe that 7.8mm rifles use .318 bullets as previously suggested and not .323 bullets. Someone on here I am sure will own a rifle marked in this way and can give you the definitive answer. Otherwise, you could get a gunsmith to cast the chamber and give you correct bore/groove and bullet measurements. Suggest you just buy a simple micrometer or caliper to check bullet diameters on factory loads - about $35 for peace of mind. Or if you are going to stick with the same brand ammo, just phone them up and check what they are loading.

Edited by JabaliHunter (13/04/08 06:07 AM)

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dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #102332 - 12/04/08 10:50 PM

J is very apt in his caution. Given the J and S issues with the 8X57 and related rounds, putting a .323 into a barrel intended for a .318 could, at a minimum, damage this fine rifle. Have a gunsmith who is familiar with this distinction check for you if you cannot do your own cast. It is simple and fast to do. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1407
Loc: United States
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: heers68]
      #102359 - 13/04/08 06:11 AM

The extra sight blade is probably for a Brenneke slug in the right shotgun barrel. This is somewhat common to find in guns that were not originaly regulated to shoot slugs to the point of aim of the rifle barrel and was added. The inserts were regulated by the adjustment wedges on the sides of the main housing that fits into the chamber, and the small rolled pin at the side fits into a small slot filed into the extractor to return them to the regulation position for tightening.

I have seen several S&Ks like yours, but none nicer.

Keep in touch; drillings are my thing.

L2S

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88MauSporter
.375 member


Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: luv2safari]
      #102399 - 13/04/08 10:10 PM

Fantastic Drilling. To have the full set up is amazing to find. I love the insert for the .22 and it hides in the Butt trap with the cartridge sections!! Please tell us more about the rear sights. Is one set up for the .22?

Great photos as well. I have had trouble with such detail to show the game scene engraving of the reciever and locks of my drilling.

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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nhdblfan
.300 member


Reged: 31/08/07
Posts: 102
Loc: NH
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #102430 - 14/04/08 07:59 AM

Great Drilling and in very usable caliber for the NC Whitetails (or maybe a Boar),and Turkey.
How long have you had it?Can you tell us how you aquired it? Bet that one came here in a duffle bag about 60 years ago.

I have dealt with Lee at L&L as well and although not had scope work done I suspect he would be able to handle that very easily.
DaveK

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heers68
.300 member


Reged: 11/04/08
Posts: 127
Loc: north carolina
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: nhdblfan]
      #102437 - 14/04/08 08:58 AM

Thanks again for all the great info on this drilling!

L2S: I had wondered if I could shoot slugs in a full choke barrel like this S&K has. Maybe that is the purpose of the back folding rear sight? you have shot the Brenneke slugs through full choke? I was told this drilling is full/full but must admit that I havent had it checked myself. my 22 insert does'nt seem to seat right in the right barrel. it does have the notch in the extractor and a bit on the insert but the bit seems a little too large to seat in the notch? Maybe this was bought later and needs to be hand fitted? What are your thoughts on the ammo issue? What are your chamber stamps if you have a 8x57 and what ammo are you using? I cant believe with this issue between .318 and .323 that this isnt listed somewhere on the casing or at least on the box!!!

DaveK: I wish I had more info on how this drilling came across the pond! I bought this drilling from a gun shop in Arizona of all places,and asked for history on it but they just said they had picked it out of a gun show. I think that 90% of the drillings in the US now were brought back by GI'S during or shortly after the war dont you? I dont mean any offence to the post war drillings but I think the pre-war drillings,rifles,and combo's especially from the 30's were the peak of (USABLE) German gun making art! Great calibers and alot of them are chambered for 2 3/4" shells! The wood,metal work,feel and styles of these guns is just AWESOME in my oppinion. I have some period catologs from this period with these guns selling for 300 to 400 marks,I wonder what that would translate to in todays dollars?? Kevin.

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heers68
.300 member


Reged: 11/04/08
Posts: 127
Loc: north carolina
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: heers68]
      #102440 - 14/04/08 09:08 AM

AMMO update......just checked the Seller&ballot sight and they list 8x57 JR as .318 bore and 8x57 JRS as .323 bore. I have been firing .318. If anyone beleaves my bore marked at 7,8 x 57 to be .323 please reply here. THANKS Kevin.

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m4220
.300 member


Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 234
Loc: wa
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: heers68]
      #102444 - 14/04/08 10:01 AM

Hi Guy's, Slug the bore on your guns to be sure of size, I & J bullets are .318 and S bullets are .323 and more common, the R just means Rimmed.
m4220

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Nakihunter
.375 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: m4220]
      #102446 - 14/04/08 10:11 AM

The 7.8mm is the bore diameter (roughly 0.308) & the groove should be another 0.008 to 0.010 inch - which makes it a 0.318 cal. It is very useful to slug your bore & make sure. These old guns often had over sized bores. How good is the accuracy?

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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dale
.333 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 341
Loc: logan W.V.
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: Nakihunter]
      #102471 - 14/04/08 03:34 PM

Hi Kevin,

Welcome to the forum. I adore your drilling. It's beautiful and the perfect drilling in my book. I have a S&K similar but not as high a grade nor in near the condition your's is. Ours came in the shop in a basket with the forend burnt off and the butstock nearly gone and the front end looked like a bundle of switches with bbls. & ribs going in every direction. Dad was able to resolder the bbls and get them regulated and I knew a man that could roughly duplicate the stock. Now I wish I had gone all the way on the wood but at the time wasn't sure how the gun would turn out. It's 16/16/ 8x57 with the 318 bore. The bases are similar to yours but I have no scope or rings. below a few photos.

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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1407
Loc: United States
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: heers68]
      #102506 - 15/04/08 05:19 AM

Quote:

AMMO update......just checked the Seller&ballot sight and they list 8x57 JR as .318 bore and 8x57 JRS as .323 bore. I have been firing .318. If anyone beleaves my bore marked at 7,8 x 57 to be .323 please reply here. THANKS Kevin.



Keep using the "J" bore ammo...! Yours is most assuredly a J bore gun.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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heers68
.300 member


Reged: 11/04/08
Posts: 127
Loc: north carolina
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: luv2safari]
      #102508 - 15/04/08 05:34 AM

DALE, That is an AWESOME Sempert & Krieghoff!! You guys did a super job on that gun! Any "before" pics?? The engraving is VERY unique with the floral designs!! I have seen alot of pre-war guns and never seen that engraving. What year was the gun made? The scope mounts look similar but like nothing I have seen elswhere! Was the gun in a house fire? The gun doesnt have a model name on the underside of the reciever??(mine "Trumpf" is there between where the Chamber blocks come through the reciever.Please come back with more info on your fine S&K! GOOD SHOW! Kevin.

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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: heers68]
      #102510 - 15/04/08 06:17 AM

An easy way to check which bullet the rifle is chambered for is to try to push an S diameter (.323")
into the mouth of a fired case. It shouldn't fit, if the bore is .318". I have two drillings, one a pre-war Sauer and the other a pre-war Greifelt, the first in 8X57 JR and the other in 8X60R. Both use the .318" bullet and neither will accept an S bullet in the fired case. Both have the caliber markings on the rib, so there is no question which bullet they use.

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heers68
.300 member


Reged: 11/04/08
Posts: 127
Loc: north carolina
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: xausa]
      #102533 - 15/04/08 11:44 AM

XAUSA, Lets see that Greifelt!! I really like there guns,almost bought one years ago,wish I had! Pics PLEASE! Kevin.

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: heers68]
      #102537 - 15/04/08 02:10 PM

Kevin,

If you are showing off, you;re most welcome to. I consider myself the self-appointed head of the committee of pesterers for pictures of beautiful guns. And you have my thanks along with those of everyone else who is a member here for sharing these pics on the forums.

If you had Keira Knightley on your arm, (as I am fond of saying) you would be showing her off, wouldn't you?

Welcome to the most pleasant madness here and do post often!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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dale
.333 member


Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 341
Loc: logan W.V.
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #103410 - 24/04/08 06:28 PM

Hey Kevin,

Thanks for your kind remarks, I checked the gun and as I thought there isn't a model on it at all. It's dated 11/22 but no name on it anywhere. Dad did it about 30 years ago and I never even thought about taking any pictures.

The good news is I talked Xausa into sending me some pictures of his drillings and he said it would be o.k. for me to post them so I'll put them on photobucket and try to post them tomorrow night. Be prepared for some "extreme Porn" :^)

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Kiwi_bloke
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Reged: 03/09/09
Posts: 256
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: dale]
      #141789 - 09/09/09 07:44 PM

Rifles marked 7,8mm are, as I understand it, all .318" bore because the lands are 7,80mm, the grooves 8,07mm and the bullet 8,09mm (0.318"). I had a Louis Knappworst Drilling made in 1931 that was marked in this way and it shot the .318" bullet accurately and to expected ballistics. Apart from the 7,8mm marked 8x57 I (Infanterie) with .318" bore, and the 7,9mm marked 8x57 S, there's also a 8x57R 360 based on an English black powder cartridge. If you search for Tom's Wiederlade-Ecke online, (www.geocities.com) you should find a reprint of the 1983 RWS Wiederlade reloading manual that shows all 3. A Cerrosafe cast will tell you which you have.

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DM
.300 member


Reged: 12/02/07
Posts: 107
Loc: mid west USA
Re: Sempert & Krieghoff Drilling Trumpf [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #141827 - 10/09/09 01:58 PM

First of all, my S&K drilling was made in Oct. 1935, and on mine, it's spelled Semper, there's NO "T" on the end.

Secondly, it's marked 7,8mm 57 and i did cerosafe the chamber and a couple inches of bbl... My measurments told me it is safe to use .323" bullets, and that's all i've shot in it. I handload 200NP's that i chronographed at 2,550fps, and i've taken moose and black bear on down with it over the last 25+ years i've been hunting with it. As you can see from this 200 yard group, this load/combo is VERY accurate,



Lastly, a .323" bullet does go into a fired case, although it doesn't fall in...

As a side note: I bought my Krieghoff from the guy that brought it from Germany, and it was all origional when i got it. I find it interesting that my drilling came with a straight stock, (not hog leg) and without a cheek piece. Of course it's been restocked since, but it still has the same stock dimensions as it did from the factory. The only thing that's different is the safety has been flopped to the right side, and of course the grade of wood and checkering is MUCH better.



Mine even came with "claw" mounts, (but not the scope) although i've had two sets of rings made for it, as i have two scopes for it...



So, in closeing, i'd have to say, don't "assume" anything, have YOUR bbl. checked to see "forsure" what it measures!

DM

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