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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 10472
Loc: Montana, USA
Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed
      #100942 - 31/03/08 09:35 AM

Went out shooting my double today--working up a load using RL-15--88 and 89 grains--with a 500 Gr woodleigh bullet--Fed. 215 primer -along with a Kynoch styrofoam stuffer-the 89 grains produced 2100 fps or there about with each shot---this is with 26" barrels--

I chronographed the Federal 500 Gr Woodleigh Factory loads--and they produced a very consistant 2200 fps--and regulated very well also--

Has anyone else ever chronographed the factory loads? Are you getting about the same speed ?? Also noticed a very heavy crimp on the Federal loads --I did not crimp my reloads and yet they shot very well.. any thoughts??


Thank you

Ripp

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albertan
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: Ripp]
      #101088 - 01/04/08 01:46 PM

Smile and keep shooting.

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Paul
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: albertan]
      #101098 - 01/04/08 02:58 PM

It must be cool in Montana at the mo. Hopefully the Federal loads would not be too hot for Africa or that your regulation might go astray.

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Ripp
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: Paul]
      #101117 - 01/04/08 08:55 PM

funny you mention that as I stated the same to my friend while we were shooting on Sunday--temp was around 38 F..plan to keep shooting until I go--supposedly the temp is to warm to the 50's this weekend..and will be in the 60's to 70's by the time I go..

thx
Ripp

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new_guy
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: Ripp]
      #101126 - 01/04/08 11:43 PM

Ripp - I have noticed velocities of the factory federal as high as 2200fps also.

I guess they've found a "magic" powder that produces that kind of vel while staying under MAP...

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JDD
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: new_guy]
      #101349 - 03/04/08 10:44 AM

Mac gave me two factory loads june of last year. I shot them today,only one shot recorded 2236 FPS.

I did find some Dacron filler down range after those shots, my other loads all used foam.

It not much but I hope that helps.

JD


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albertan
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: JDD]
      #101617 - 05/04/08 09:48 AM

A well known article on loading the .470 Nitro Express claimed that Federal used Reloder 15 as factory fill. Ross Seyfried went as far to claim that Federal had alot to do with the burn characteristics of Reloder 15.

I believe Lee will make a Factory Crimp Die for a .470 for a nominal fee so long as a dummy round is provided. If the factory fodder works well with a crimp, what can it hurt to try?

They don't use a filler, but they do use a Federal F-216 magnum primer that we mortals cannot get our grubby little hands on. The ultra-powerful F-216 will work with the copious air space in the volumous Express case.

Reloder 15 is used by the U.S. Army in the 7.62. They insisted that it was more temperature tolerant. They got their way. 40 below or 40 above, the stuff will work well without temperature sensitivity.

Regards


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zimhunter
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: albertan]
      #101634 - 05/04/08 11:18 AM

I reloaded all my 470 loads with Reloader 15 and dacron filler and had perfect ignition and my Merkel regulated perfectly with it. I pulled the bullets on two Federal rounds and weighed the charge and it was exactly the same as the load I was using. The powder had tha appearance of being the same as RL15 and I went so far as to measure the diameter and length of the grains and actually took them to the lab where I had access to very precision scales and in all three areas length,diameter and weight they were exactly the same as RL15. From this I personally concluded they WERE RL15 and as I understand it Alliant Powder and Federal are both owned by ATK (Alliant Techsystems) which would make sense they use each others products. I don't think you can go wrong with this combination but it woud be nice to get the hotter primers as the white Dacron is disconcerting when you shoot on the range. In actual hunting use you never see it. I don't own and have never used a chronograph and have never missed it and really don't see the need for it. Don't yell, I know I'm in the very small minority.

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Marrakai
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: zimhunter]
      #101644 - 05/04/08 12:23 PM

Not yelling, speechless...

Still trying to control the hair standing up on the back of my neck.....



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Marrakai
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Ripp
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: zimhunter]
      #101704 - 06/04/08 12:54 AM

Quote:

I reloaded all my 470 loads with Reloader 15 and dacron filler and had perfect ignition and my Merkel regulated perfectly with it. I pulled the bullets on two Federal rounds and weighed the charge and it was exactly the same as the load I was using. The powder had tha appearance of being the same as RL15 and I went so far as to measure the diameter and length of the grains and actually took them to the lab where I had access to very precision scales and in all three areas length,diameter and weight they were exactly the same as RL15. From this I personally concluded they WERE RL15 and as I understand it Alliant Powder and Federal are both owned by ATK (Alliant Techsystems) which would make sense they use each others products. I don't think you can go wrong with this combination but it woud be nice to get the hotter primers as the white Dacron is disconcerting when you shoot on the range. In actual hunting use you never see it. I don't own and have never used a chronograph and have never missed it and really don't see the need for it. Don't yell, I know I'm in the very small minority.





I Have gone to using Kynoch's foam wads per advise from 400Nitro--works very well and has sped up the reloading process..

As to the chronograph--each to their own but in the real world I can't see how you can reload and NOT use one--it will tell you more than just the speed of your bullet--and...if you shoot at extended ranges you need to know the exact speed of the bullet to know how to either adjust your scope accordingly or where to hold ...either way, I used them quite a bit..

Ripp

--------------------
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zimhunter
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: Ripp]
      #101708 - 06/04/08 01:16 AM

Ripp,
As I said in my post please don't yell I KNOW I'm in the minority on this forum,not that YOU were yelling just making a statement. I have, in the 50+ years I've been shooting and reloading, discovered a better means of learning where the round lands at distance by ACTUALLY shooting it at that distance. Your conclusion only applies if one is actually interested in shooting at very long distances. I am very poor at both judging range and wind so take very few shots at any long ranges. I shoot very regularly on the ranges around Tucson and I cannot remember ever seeing a chronograph in use over once. It would be interesting to see how many reloaders use them. I in no way say they are not useful and even vauable to reloaders but do question the NECESSITY of them. There have been many many rounds loaded without the use of one. Safely and successfully I believe. I rarely cite statistics on this or any forum first because I don't have them and second because the comments made on here are my own alone and not in any way meant to imply they are absolutes except in my own mind. I become more and more reluctant to post on here as I don't like to raise the hackles on anyone with my views on any subject.


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 10472
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: zimhunter]
      #101710 - 06/04/08 01:22 AM

Zimhunter

Not yelling at all..just merely stating what I do..have had all the yelling for one week I care too..

I totally agree with you and your methods and perhaps I should have been more thorough in my explanation..I do exactely what you do with the exception I also use the chrono-- once I have chronographed the load and use the tables --I adjust accordingly and then shoot at those distances to make sure it is accurate--and yes,,there are many times where additional adjustment is needed --however it usually gets me pretty close on the first try or two.. so I can adjust from there...

Take Care

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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ducota
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Reged: 27/04/07
Posts: 75
Loc: Portugal
Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: Ripp]
      #102365 - 13/04/08 07:50 AM

It has been very interesting to follow all this array of precious information. I only shot 470 factory ammos until I was able to get the dies and it was around 2001. By then I had tried (chronographed)Federal Premium, Kynock and A-square. From my double the av speeds were, in order, 1950, 2050 and 2150. I always do the testings with this caliber on hot weather and I can't find an explanation for the differences towards the mentioned Federal speeds.
Using Tubal 7000 powder, CCI 250 and 500 grains woodleighs I settled on a load of 106 grains and a medium crimping for 2170 f/s with excellent groupings and no signs of anything wrong.
I was surprised to learn that the use of wads (to reduce the empty space in the case, right?) is common among most of the mentioned loads and reloads. Might I be doing wrong in not using them?
Regards

Edited by ducota (13/04/08 08:09 AM)


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Marrakai
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: ducota]
      #102380 - 13/04/08 11:57 AM

ducota:
Assuming Tubal 7000 is similar in density to US/AUS powders, 106 grains will damn-near fill the .470 case and no filler is necessary. I load 103gr of slow-burning AR2213 with no filler or wad. It leaves only a 1/4-inch or less of air-space under the seated bullet. A few of my friends load 105gr IMR4831 when they can get it, also without filler. No problems whatsoever.

Wads are necessary in nitro-for-black loads, because there is a lot of air-space left in the case and powders are medium burners. There is probably a place for wads or filler in the .450 No.2 and the .475 No.2 also, but I defer to others with more experience reloading the 'tall-boys'.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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ducota
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: Marrakai]
      #102432 - 14/04/08 08:18 AM

Thanks Marrakai.

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Marrakai
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: ducota]
      #102462 - 14/04/08 01:08 PM

ducota:
I forgot to mention that the 'Reloader' brand of powders is becoming popular for loading the NEs in the US, and reloading with 'Reloader' will probably require a filler or wads also.

The 'Reloader' powders require a less-bulky charge for the same velocity (less than 80 grains in the .470 ?), so there's a bit too much air-space for comfort. Federal use this powder in their factory-loaded .470 I believe.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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BlainSmipy
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: Marrakai]
      #102511 - 15/04/08 06:18 AM

Quote:

ducota:
I forgot to mention that the 'Reloader' brand of powders is becoming popular for loading the NEs in the US, and reloading with 'Reloader' will probably require a filler or wads also.

The 'Reloader' powders require a less-bulky charge for the same velocity (less than 80 grains in the .470 ?), so there's a bit too much air-space for comfort. Federal use this powder in their factory-loaded .470 I believe.




I believe its 89 grains RL15 for the 470NE. I use 80 grains RL15 in my 45-120-480 double I built for 2050FPS which is dead nuts on what a 450ne takes as well(for same vel). I cut my own foam wads, and have had great luck with them.

Have you ever juice that .577 up beyond 1650 FPS? Is that what it is regulated to?

bs

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ducota
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #102514 - 15/04/08 08:09 AM

My 470 load was built upon an initial tip from Mr. Reimer, Johannsen <info@johannsen-jagd.de>;
I've just found the note he sent me with the recommended load - 109 grains - and in that same note he wrote that Tubal7000 is equivalent to Rottweiler905, AlliantRL19, IMR4350 and VihtavuoriN550. As I have already written I have only use Tubal sofar.

Edited by ducota (15/04/08 08:16 AM)


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BlainSmipy
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: ducota]
      #102516 - 15/04/08 08:15 AM

Sounds about right for IMR4350. Is that full case density?

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ducota
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #102517 - 15/04/08 08:17 AM

There isn't much room left indeed

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: ducota]
      #102547 - 15/04/08 06:16 PM

As a matter of interest the Federal .470 ammo I received the other day obviously has quite a bit of air space as you can hear the powder when you shake the cartridge, Why don't Federal use a filler or is it uneccesary because of the powder type ? thx in advance, Mike

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ozhunter
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #102549 - 15/04/08 06:37 PM

I have plenty of room in both my 470NE and 450/400 rounds with no filler necessary.

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: ozhunter]
      #102564 - 16/04/08 05:52 AM

Quote:

I have plenty of room in both my 470NE and 450/400 rounds with no filler necessary.




No hang fires? What primer are you using? I get erratic velocities if I don't use wads.

BS

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You horde gold, I horde lead.


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albertan
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #103701 - 27/04/08 04:35 PM

As an aside. Federal .470 Nitro brass is made for them by Norma. Norma's handloading guide made that pretty clear. Photographs, and a brief explanation as proof.

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Ripp
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Re: Federal .470 Nitro loads chronographed [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #103740 - 28/04/08 07:38 AM

Quote:

As a matter of interest the Federal .470 ammo I received the other day obviously has quite a bit of air space as you can hear the powder when you shake the cartridge, Why don't Federal use a filler or is it uneccesary because of the powder type ? thx in advance, Mike




Mike
As mentioned above--Federal uses a 216 primer which us mere mortals can't have...the .216 is a hotter primer than the .215 and therefore is not needed..

Ripp

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