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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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pgcpty
.224 member


Reged: 08/10/05
Posts: 4
Loc: NSW AUSTRALIA
375H&H Handloads
      #39445 - 21/10/05 06:10 PM

Hi Y'll

I've been experimenting with various projectiles in the weight range of 250gr to 350gr in my recently acquired mint condition CZ602, as follows.

Taipan 300gr RNFB x 80gr of AR2209 MV 2630 <1" groups
Sierra 250gr SPBT x 81gr of AR2209 MV 2710 2.5" groups
Speer 270gr SPBT x 80.5gr of AR2209 MV 2670 2.5"groups
Taipan 350gr RNFB x 78gr of AR2209 MV 2515 <1" groups
All groups shot at 100yds.

I'm finding that I can readily set the RNFB bullets .020 back from the lands and still maintain plenty of bullet seating depth in the case mouth giving good accuracy. However when the Boat Tails are set back .020 from the lands the case/bullet seating depth is between 0.1" and 0.15" (i.e. 300gr and 350gr respectively) which I won't load. Consequently when set back to give ~0.25" seating depth in the case, the accuracy blows out to >2 minutes of angle.

This is all about ogive shape and has lead me to conclude that 375 SPBT projectiles are unsuitable for the CZ602 due to the amount of free bore.

This is bit of a disappointment actually. I'm interested in feedback on the issue and any recommendations regarding a range flat based projectiles where adequate case seating depth is achieved with close set back from the lands.

My chamber measurements are (approx)
Case Base to neck 2.875"
Case base to lands 3.200"
Distance across the lands 0.367, (each land 0.004" high)

All input appreciated

Cheers........Peter

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: pgcpty]
      #39448 - 21/10/05 06:38 PM


I think you may be being a bit too technical for a 375.
A Brno 375 is not a Varmiter.

I have ownd 5 Brno's (550 and 602's) and all have shot
with all shape of bullets.

I just shove powder in case, seat bullet and shoot
and they all shoot 1 - 1.5moa without a problem.
I then work from there to get better accuracy but in
reality I think most 375 + shooters should spend more
time practising shooting the gun and less time
worrying about Sub Moa loads in a 375.

After all, so what if a load is Sub MOA if the person's
wobbles are 3 MOA at 100 Yards

And as to boat tales, BT's weaken a jacket
and BT's don't have any affect until 250+ yards
anyway and you shouldn't be shooting game at that
range anyway.

500 Nitro

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SAHUNT
Sponsor


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: pgcpty]
      #39452 - 21/10/05 08:57 PM

My Sako model 75 in 375 H&H is very forgiving, as most 375H&H's. I can aolmost put anything in it and it shoots well.
Work your load up to your desired speed and that is it. I like my bullets not to fast. I believe you get better terninal balistics at a lower speed.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: SAHUNT]
      #39460 - 21/10/05 11:23 PM

I just checked my load data versus your after reading SAHUNT's post
where he mentions "I like my bullets not to fast. I believe you get
better terninal balistics at a lower speed." which I totally agree with.
Velocity doens't kill game.

Back off your loads a fair bit and work up as SA HUNT says.

I think you are going WAY too fast for some of those bullets and
this is proably affecting accuracy.

Try 75 - 76 grains of ADI 2209 with 300gn bullet and work up
Try 68 grains of ADI 2209 with 350gn bullet. I have loaded up to
74gns of 2209 for mv of 2375. You can probably go higher but why ?
Long, Heavy for calibre bullet that kills well at 2375.

Max OAL is 3.6 on a 375H&H - stick just below that and don't change too many
things at once when reloading and testing otherwise you wo't know what is causing
the change.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27665
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: pgcpty]
      #39470 - 22/10/05 04:01 AM

The old standards of 68 to 70gr. of IMR4064 ( or equivalent) is an elk, moose or other game buster and needs no speeding up. This is with 270gr. bullets. With 300's, 64 to 65gr. works just fine.
: Most .375's will hold these bullets into less than 1" at 100yds. and recoil is soft, as it should be from such a magnificent round.
: I've shot a few 250gr. Sierra BT's (when fireforming) and while very accurate in my .375, they are a very soft bullet, suitable for deer only perhaps. I'd not shoot a moose with one, unless traveling no faster than about 2,400fps. There are much superior bullets available.
: The 300's run around 2,450fps and the 270's in the 2,650fps to 2,700fps range, depending on the rifle.
: My old buddy, Lester J. Hawkes had a large jar full of perfectly expanded 270gr. Power Points recoverd from Montana Elk and B.C. Moose using a mere 68gr. 4064 from his 1951 M70, .375. My BRNO, 602, in 1974 put his old loaded ammo into 3/4" yet it had been loaded for almost 12 years.
: It's the bullet and placement that kills the game. The bullet has to perform properly, and with normal lead-core bullets, veloctiy can hinder rather than help.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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WyoJoe
.300 member


Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 234
Loc: Cheyenne, WY USA
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: DarylS]
      #39481 - 22/10/05 07:39 AM

In reply to:

The old standards of 68 to 70gr. of IMR4064 ( or equivalent) is an elk, moose or other game buster and needs no speeding up. This is with 270gr.



I use the Speer 270 gr BTSP over 70 gr. of 4064 in mine and I am pleased with it so far. It is a load that I tried out this year. So far I have taken 1 deer and an antelope with it. A week from monday I hope to try it on elk.

--------------------
There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?"

Martin Luther King, Jr.

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pgcpty
.224 member


Reged: 08/10/05
Posts: 4
Loc: NSW AUSTRALIA
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: pgcpty]
      #39484 - 22/10/05 08:40 AM

Thanks for the input guys. Keep them coming.

It appears my techniques of tuning the 375 as I would a bench rest rig (which I also shoot) is a touch dramatic.

Bench guns mostly shoot best with hot loads, powders that fill the case and the projectile touching the lands.

I shoot a golf bag full of rifles including 22-250, 243W and 270W all zeroed around 200 yds which I regularly practice shoot at the range. This gives me great confidence in the field as I know what every rifle will do. This is my approach with the 375 but I guess the advice largely is "cool it", lighten the loads and stick to the max 3.6" OAL.....Peter

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: pgcpty]
      #39485 - 22/10/05 08:41 AM


pgcpty

What are you planning to shoot with your Brno 375
and how are you shooting it at the range ?

Of the bench or Standing Supported ?

I don't know your experience with larger calibree
so have to ask these 2 qustions as I've seen it before.

Are you absolutely sure that it is not you flinching or
grabbing the trigger that is causing the accuracy problem ?

Hope this helps

500 Nitro

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pgcpty
.224 member


Reged: 08/10/05
Posts: 4
Loc: NSW AUSTRALIA
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39508 - 22/10/05 01:42 PM

Buffalo, Scrub Bulls and maybe a Samba but not holding my breath re the Samba.

I shoot using a Bench Rest stand and rear sand bag with an additional rear sand bag set on end behind the butt as buffer for my shoulder.

I use the 602's set trigger feature and see the rifle jump confirming that my eyes are open through ignition.

I'm fairly sure I don’t have a flinching problem as I can readily shoot under inch groups with the 300 and 350gr RNFB Taipans set 20thou off the lands and an OAL of 3.65"

But the group size doubles for the 270gr Speer SPBT's

I intend now to attempt tuning a load for the Speer SPBT's by varying the charge with the OAL set to 3.6" to see if I can find the barrel resonance sweet spot.

Any Comments?........Peter

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: pgcpty]
      #39509 - 22/10/05 02:09 PM

Good answer.

Firstly, I would suggest you get used to buying some premium
bullets if hunting Buffalo, Scrub Bulls and maybe a Samba
otherwise in a tight situation you will have a very angry bull
on your hands. Taipans and Sierra are not what I call bullets
good enough for these game.

As per my previous post where I said BT's weaken a jacket,
you can see I don't like BT's.

Personally, I don't like set triggers so I would get another trigger
put in and get it adjusted by a gun smith to a nice clean let off
to whatever you want - 3lbs ?

What are you like shooting the gun off hand ?
Reason I say this is that in the bush there aren't any nech rests and
sand bags so make sure you do plenty of practice off hand.

If recoil is a problem, get a sorbthane pad put in a shooting jacket
or use a PAST Shoulder Recoil Pad which can be taken on an off
as needed - and worn under a shirt.

If you don't know where to get this type of stuff, PM me and I'll put
you in touch with a dealer who has it in stock.

Hope this helps and ask away any questions - happy to help.

500 Nitro

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rgp
.333 member


Reged: 17/06/04
Posts: 373
Loc: TX & VIC
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39518 - 22/10/05 04:04 PM

I'd like to emphasize 500Nitro's point about the Sierra bullets...I've never used the Taipans so I cannot comment on those.

But the Sierra bullets are something I use because I do use my .375 on varmints, and Sierra bullets are varmint and target bullets and nothing more.

In my experience the 300 gr. Sierra boattail spitzers are superbly accurate but seem to blow up on impact with anything thicker than a piece of paper. With my .375 H&H loads they do not always exit on a coyote (either that or I just can't find an exit hole), and the coyote looks like he swallowed a hand grenade. Also for any Aussies who haven't been to the USA, the average coyote is no thicker than the few dingos I've seen...think in terms of an animal with the body size of a Blue Heeler or a Queensland Heeler.

However I've heard differing reports from some people, including "excellent performance on elk" with the same bullet, so there may be some variation between production runs.

Richard

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: rgp]
      #39523 - 22/10/05 04:38 PM


rgp,

If you think Sierra's are thin and blow up, wait until you see
Taipans. They are ultra thin and used over here as cheap target
bullets and to some extent by Varmint shooters.

Sierra - don't Sierra have a target and a Game Bullet - Game King ?
(although still not recommended for Buff etc.

500 Nitro

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SAHUNT
Sponsor


Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: pgcpty]
      #39527 - 22/10/05 04:50 PM

pgcpty,
Be carefull loading yout projectile touching the lands, you might get presssure prblems.

I had a problem with my 308's group. I worked up a load and start working on AOL. I started 1 mm from the lands and decreased AOL with .2 mm. I found the perfect lenght and load acordingly. I might also work in the 375.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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pgcpty
.224 member


Reged: 08/10/05
Posts: 4
Loc: NSW AUSTRALIA
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39531 - 22/10/05 05:55 PM

The Taipan projectiles are for target practice only.(off hand and bench) For hunting I'll use Woodleigh's which come highly recommended but a bit too expensive for target practice.

Any comments on 357 Woodleighs?.....Peter

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: pgcpty]
      #39543 - 22/10/05 08:25 PM


Yes, Any of the 375 Woodleigh's will kill what
you want to hunt as long as you do your bit
with Bullet Placement.

Personally, go with 300gn RN or PP.

I've shot heaps of Buffalo with the 375H&H
and Woodleighs.

350 is a big long bullet and although good for
what it is designed for doesn't give you flat LONG range
trajectory.

If you have any more questions, just ask.

500 Nitro

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Bushie
.224 member


Reged: 24/10/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Australia
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: 500Nitro]
      #39693 - 24/10/05 10:33 PM

PQCPTY ,
Whilst I have never handloaded for a .375 there is a fairly basic rule that your benchrest background may have caused you to overlook .
That is to seat the bullet in the case to a minimum of 1 calibre depth (or thereabouts) .It doesn't totally rule out good accuracy and anyone who thinks they need MOA from a .375 has his hand on it anyway . This will probably go against the grain but you may get some surprising results . My .243 will shoot in the 3's with the 55 Nosler waaay back off the lands .
It could be that your .375 just doesn't like those particular projectiles too . It happens all the time . Find something it likes and feed it that .

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
.400 member


Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: Bushie]
      #39700 - 25/10/05 12:57 AM

The only projectile to use for hunting is a Woodleigh.
In my 375 I use the 300 gn round nose both solid and soft.
The record asian buffalo on the front cover of the Woodleigh catalogue was shot with a 375 Woodleigh round nose solid ,using 60 gns of ADI 2208.


--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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Ratel74
.275 member


Reged: 03/09/05
Posts: 77
Loc: USA
Re: 375H&H Handloads [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #39735 - 25/10/05 09:50 AM

We work on alot of .375 calibre rifles, ou rstandard test load is the Norma TXP 300 grs 2554 factory load. The Norma solid is a Barnes at about 2450 fps. Our accuracy is great with these 2 loads. In handloads, I use the Sierra 300 grs bullet with IMR 4350 or IMR 4064. I do not consider the bullet acceptable for anything larger than small plains game and deer. I have seen that bullet break up on the shoudler of heartebeeste. I have been looking to try VV, we have had such great luck with the 9,3's it might merit some experimentation. The last BRNo we worked on shot an 1" at 100yds with the Norma ammo after we fixed the crack in the stock and cleaned up the crown.

Aleko

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