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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 2019
Loc: Denmark
The book of the .500 express.
      #390346 - 12/03/25 07:27 PM

Hi guys.

Inspired by many books about a certain calibers and now a forum member DoubleD to make a book about the The British .500 express and its variants.

We are many forummembers who has a .500cal express rifle and I wondered if we could make a jointventure. Each member write write some pages in regards to their rifles from a historal, technical, shooring, reloading and hunting perspective. It doesn`t have to all subjects included and many may not have shot their rifles but merely just have bought for a collectors perspective. Here could good pictures be added.

I have two .500express a Cogswell & Harrison .500 3" and a H&H .577/500magnum.

I have many books from the golden period where the .500 blackpowder express was every man rifle. Experiences from India and Africa could be quoted. Also old drawing of cartridge cases, bullets etc.
Various of book titles from the period recorded down for inspiration for the reader(and book collector).

When all this have been gathered up someone with good skills in putting up a book and perhaps know a publisher will publish a book(s).

The articals doesn`t have to be long. If one only page can be wrote thats cool. Get as much as possible from each members.

An introduction to the caliber and the purpose of the book has to written and telling this book is a contribution from different authors(members) with an interest in the caliber from its golden days...etc etc.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3672
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: rigbymauser]
      #390348 - 12/03/25 09:13 PM

Good idea.

I can contribute on a Rodda .577/.500 No.2 Cordite Express.

Even have an original Rodda-headstamped cartridge, but paper-patched lead bullet so probably black powder.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40432
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: Marrakai]
      #390349 - 12/03/25 09:32 PM

My Cogswell & Harrison .500 Ex. I've nothing more to add on it currently. Maybe I'll be motivated to do something about it?.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=365223&an=&page=0&vc=1

By coincidence this morning I had a look at my box of Woodleigh projectile I bought in my last order. Before the fire. A box of 440 gr Woodleighs in it. Nomides if they're the right bullet. 440 gr .510" Woodleigh Weldcore RNSP. One of of 25 projectiles.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (13/03/25 04:10 PM)

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DoubleD
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Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2469
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: NitroX]
      #390354 - 12/03/25 11:17 PM

I have two of these guns.

Greener Martini S1 grade Marked simply 500 EXP on bottom of barrel with Enfield rifling

Westley Richards Pat 1871 Patent Express rifle marked for No.2 case barrel proofed for 38 balls and Whitworth rifled.

Both gun acquired from fellows here on NE.com.

My interest is of course is the single shot.

However, I look at these guns-doubles and singles as more than antique pretty faces to decorate my gun safe. To me they they are a challenge to shoot and hunt with.

I took the Greener on my 70th birthday Moose. I was fully prepared to use it, but the moose did not present itself close enough and I had to use my Mauser 338/06 AI.

My wish when I said I thought that it would be nice if some one wrote on the .500 Express, was looking modern loading data on this chambering so I can use them hunting.

If I can get this WR 1871 to shoot reasonably accurate 25 yards, I will take it to Manitoba in September for my bear hunt. I have the issue of Whitworth barrel with sewer pipe bore.

If not the Greener will make the trip.

I would do my part for two chapters and document what I have to make these two guns shoot

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1143
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: DoubleD]
      #390358 - 13/03/25 06:55 AM

DD,

You mention your WR 1871 has a rough bore. Have you tried lapping it? I ask because I had a Alexander Henry seal rifle with a very rough bore. The person who sold it to me said he could get it to hit a 12" circle at 25 yds. Over several days, I lapped the bore and was able to get the rifle to shoot a 2" group at 25 yd.s using 458" hard cast bullets driven by 4198. While not great accuracy, that was a tremendous improvement.

--------------------
RB

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 2019
Loc: Denmark
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: 85lc]
      #390359 - 13/03/25 07:27 AM

I have no idea how to publish a book but I have thought of a book about the most used caliber for allround use during the british empire.
I know Cal Pappas also mentioned it one time.

I know it will take time, but I am a bit thrilled with the thought. Vintage .500cal stuff like bulletmolds, fixers, reloading tools etc ought to be illustrated. Old casedrawings, bulletdrawing etc should be added. Old catalogs from WR, H&H, Eley`s, Kynochs that portraits a .500 express can be of use.

Experiences from the litterature of the period could be quoted in regards to use of the .500ex.

Basically a book where one will find just about everything one need to know about the caliber regardless if one is a cartridge collector, blackpowdershooter, hunter with vintage firearms,reloader or perhaps guncollector. Sort of a compendium.

Edited by rigbymauser (13/03/25 07:32 AM)

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Claydog
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Reged: 17/08/12
Posts: 1082
Loc: Katherine, Northern Territory ...
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: rigbymauser]
      #390363 - 13/03/25 08:51 AM

I guided this gentleman who was using a Holland 500 express double. He was using his own bullets of a secret alloy he had mixed up. He is holding the four shells in his hand he used to stop it. The hunter was quite pedantic and would not shoot unless the range was under 35 yards. Afterwards I had to slip a rod in the bullet holes to measure penetration and provide a full autopsy.

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1143
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: Claydog]
      #390364 - 13/03/25 09:29 AM

Claydog,

Wow, I have never hunted with a pumpkin head, particularly one holding a beautiful rifle.

Well what is teh rest of the story. How much penetration was there and was the rifle effective?

I read the story of Don Kettelkamp cape buffalo hunt using his .500 Black Powder Express Double Rifle, I think in an early Double Gun Journal. From what I remember, Don thought his 500EX was a little light for buffalo. Perhaps others have read Don's writeup and can discuss.

--------------------
RB

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Claydog
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Reged: 17/08/12
Posts: 1082
Loc: Katherine, Northern Territory ...
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: 85lc]
      #390365 - 13/03/25 10:49 AM

I have hunted with several pumpkin heads and find them generally good company. Below is a bit of a rundown from the hunter on the shots. My mistake it was six shots and a final from my 404. Was a tough bull. Was dead after the first shot but didn't know it. I do remember giving the hunter the knife in the end and going and sitting in the Toyota with his wife while the autopsy continued. As an aside his wife shot a bull with a Paradox and shot it very well with one shot.
1.Hit middle of right side of trunk, thru liver, diaphragm and to frontal lobe of left lung, probably ending up in frontal left chest or just outside it.
2. First running shot: Upper trunk on left a bit forward of middle, ranging along top of ribs in forward half of saddle muscle
3. Broadside shot straight up line of left leg, thru lungs and should have been in opposite shoulder in same alignment
4. Second running shot at greater distance. I later remembered seeing blood just behind his left elbow as we walked up on him and so that shot must have been deflected by all the brush/trees he was running past and just grazed him up middle of brisket beween his legs, explaining the long skin wound we found there. His angle of that run would not fit with an undeflected direct bullet hit in that alignment.
5/6/7. Trying to kill him with spine shot to neck from front. One of these went thru right ear, grazed off right neck and hit front of his right shoulder. One may have gone thru his nose and into front of neck. One went thru left ear and probably into left side of neck.
8. A shot more from rearward angle down into neck that put him down but did not break his neck.
9. Your .404 bullet from top of shoulder a bit on left side, down into spine and likely farther.

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2496
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: Claydog]
      #390366 - 13/03/25 12:32 PM

Did the wife with the Paradox use a solid or a hollow point, if you remember ?

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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Claydog
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Reged: 17/08/12
Posts: 1082
Loc: Katherine, Northern Territory ...
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #390369 - 13/03/25 01:58 PM

Matt
It was a 812gn solid @ 1000fps for 66.7ft.lbs of recoil. That was what was was on an email from the husband. She was a 117 lb lady and shot it off the sticks rather well. Not a great trophy but she smashed it with one shot. It ran off and I shot as it was leaving through the hip and into the chest, but she had got it through the heart.




Edited by Claydog (13/03/25 02:16 PM)

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Claydog
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Reged: 17/08/12
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Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: Claydog]
      #390370 - 13/03/25 02:22 PM

Images don't seem to be loading. here is a link to a photo of the recovered projectile.
https://hosting.photobucket.com/82201b01...fd1eeeec1f6.jpg

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40432
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: rigbymauser]
      #390372 - 13/03/25 04:05 PM

Quote:

I have no idea how to publish a book but I have thought of a book about the most used caliber for allround use during the british empire.
I know Cal Pappas also mentioned it one time.



I'm surprised by that, that the .500 EXP was the most used cartridges of the British Empire. Probably because on the vintage guns used market the various .450 EXPs seem more common nowadays?

But the .500s are more sought after IMO. I certainly preferred a .500 EXP. A bit more grunt for larger than medium game hunting use.

Nowadays we think of a .450 as a big bore. But it was a medium game calibre. A .500 was as well, but starting to get into larger game. A 12-bore, pretty ordinary, but was sometimes used for DG. 10-bore. But especially 8-bore became an elephant hunters, and rhino choice. At least my conclusions from period reading. Of course the man in the field often used what he had or could afford.

Quote:

I know it will take time, but I am athe brass case.uzing bit thrilled with the thought. Vintage .500cal stuff like bulletmolds, fixers, reloading tools etc ought to be illustrated. Old casedrawings, bulletdrawing etc should be added. Old catalogs from WR, H&H, Eley`s, Kynochs that portraits a .500 express can be of use.



Sounds good. A chapter with illustrations, photos, descriptions and comments on accessories sounds quite good.

Perhaps a chapter on actually a step by step process of using old vintage reloading tools. Moulding the bullet. Sizing the brass case. Depriming, priming. Measuring and and charging the black powder. Seating the bullet. What ever else is required.

The ability to reload cartridges in the field, or in the field camp is mostly something alien to us today. I did start reloading for my .222 with a Lee Loader kit though. Added a powder scales. Never loaded in fields camps though.

Beyond a book, a video of the process and final shooting would be very cool.

Quote:

Experiences from the litterature of the period could be quoted in regards to use of the .500ex.



I really like that idea. Chapters extracted from vintage authors using such a rifle.
Eg if it fits, a chapter of Sir Samuel Baker using a .500 EXP on sambar and tiger or leopard, buffalo, gaur? I don't know if he did?
Eg Or James Corbett using a .500 EXP on maneating tiger. I believe Corbett used a .500 DR, but it may have been an NE?

Adds vintage spice to the modern day chapters of a vintage gun, photos, reloading, modern hunting use, Same as vintage photos.

If it's out of copyright, it can be used I believe.


Quote:

Basically a book where one will find just about everything one need to know about the caliber regardless if one is a cartridge collector, blackpowdershooter, hunter with vintage firearms,reloader or perhaps guncollector. Sort of a compendium.



Great idea.

My self interest. . If the NE forums can help. I'd also love to see this information, stories, photos on here, on forum threads. Maybe as part of a collection process of the material. Perhaps a special thread, or even a sub forum for the purpose? As people add a thread of their submission, constructive comments might assist, Photos for a book must be of minimum quality for print publishing. And it sparks new interest, and keeps the idea going. Just an idea?

Self publishing a book involves putting the material together. Then usually either funding the initial minimum printing lot. Or collecting sufficient pre-orders. To allow a printing. Or sufficient pre-orders to justify a publisher to believe it's a commercial proposition to publish.

Another possibility is a digital copy of the book. The cost of publishing a minimum lot is avoided. The "book" is a finished book in digital form. Not as nice as a nice hard cover glossy photos book with paper of course. We all like them on our book shelves. A digital format, on a USB stick or what ever, can gave more photos, and especially videos. Reloading, shooting, hunting. Perhaps such could even be an addition in the book? Just an idea.

Keep it going.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40432
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: Marrakai]
      #390373 - 13/03/25 04:21 PM

Quote:

Good idea.

I can contribute on a Rodda .577/.500 No.2 Cordite Express.

Even have an original Rodda-headstamped cartridge, but paper-patched lead bullet so probably black powder.



Quote:

Although chambered for the .577/.500 No.2 Black Powder Express, the action flats are stamped “CO EX” indicating that the rifle was proved for, and probably regulated with, the cordite express ‘nitro-for-black’ load. Ballistics at the time specified a 440-grain .510 bluff-nose jacketed soft-point at 1675 fps, for 2740 ftlbs muzzle energy. The Taylor Knock-Out value would be 53.7 with a 440gr solid, not brilliant by any means, but some 25% more than the .375 H&H Magnum.





I was going to ask regarding typical bullet weight, ballistics etc. I see Marrakai has provided some data.

So a NFB type load might get around 1600 to 1700 fps.

What would a BP load get typically?

The Woodleigh Weldcore bullet is 440 grs. Is this typical for a ,500 EXP? Any difference weights, lead bullet wrights?

Different .500 EXPs might have different case capacities? What sort of variations in bullet weight, velocities etc?

Just out of interest. Thanks,

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
Posts: 2496
Loc: Melbourne Australia
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: Claydog]
      #390376 - 13/03/25 08:46 PM

Thanks for that info, very interesting. The reason I asked is because I have read quite a number of stories and testimonials from Hunters who used Paradoxes when they were a popular gun to use and a number of people claimed the hollow point to be useless on tough game whereas they found the solid to work very well.
Great pic of the projectile by the way, thanks for posting.


Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
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Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #390378 - 13/03/25 09:32 PM

I had a Ruger No1 made up for a Group 3 & BP Express rifle for our BGR events.
Barrel length is 30.7" TSE barrel & overall weight 10lb 4oz

I would not recommend any of my 570gn loads as Quickload 'Estimates' this at over 42KPSI which is exceeds the 40KPSI limit of this cartridge!

Initially I rolled up some of Graeme Wright's NFB load to try first & see where the sights were going on a pig.
They certain did a great job on Porky!

NFB Load 72gn AR2208, Federal 215 Magnum primers, 20mm foam over powder wad, Hornardy brass & 440gn Woodleigh projectile designed for BP Express rifles.
Velocity 1827fps Average, unexpectedly there was a fair deviation between shots, but this load shot perfectly in a friend's Sabatti double, side by side at 25m!
OAL 90.3mm

When I stepped the 440gn Woodie behind 89gn of AR2208, Federal 215 Magnum primers,
recoil went up considerably as did velocity, averaging 2190fps with 16fps deviation. I can't remember if I used any foam over powder wadding but my notes say I didn't!
This was a Group 2 load should I use it for that event.
OAL 90.3mm

Next came the Group 3 loads, I was a lot fitter then & did it off the bench with a Past pad to help my shoulder!
Group 3 Load 92gn AR2208, Federal 215 Magnum primers, Hornardy brass & 570gn Woodleigh projectile designed for Nitro Express rifles.
Velocity was 100 higher than expected with Quickload, with 2157fps Average, there was 1fps deviation between shots, yes this was witnessed & boy was it a handful! My son has shot this standing up, made him take a step or two backwards on the first one he touched off!

BPE loads
125gn Wano 2F, Federal 215 primers, beeswax over powder wad & 0.6ml home made BP lube (50% each of Neatsfoot oil/Beeswax), Hornardy brass & 440gn Woodleigh BPE projectile.
Average 1282fps
OAL 93.2mm

This is longer than the bullet fitted to its cannelure to allow for the lube.
Never found this load good enough so went to Duplex loads.

Duplex load
110gn Wano 2F + 15gn AR2205.
This equates to 155gn BP being each grain of Nitro powder equals 3gn of BP.

Fit grease paper over powder wad between Nitro & BP powders
Again Federal 215 primers, beeswax over powder wad & 0.6ml home made BP lube (50% each of Neatsfoot oil/Beeswax), Hornardy brass & 445gn lead Paper Patch projectile CBE moulds.
Average 1686fps
OAL 91.25mm

Its been many years since doing these loads, not sure if I lubed the PP projectiles or lightly crimped the cases after using an 'M' die to open up the case necks to aid seating!
They shot okay from memory at 50m.
I have done hard cast & have the 340 & 400gn CBE gas groove moulds.
I used as best I can determine to be close to 6/2/92 Alloy mix.

340gn load (316gn cast)
Duplex load
110gn Wano 2F + 15gn AR2205.
This equates to 155gn BP being each grain of Nitro powder equals 3gn of BP.
Fit grease paper over powder wad between Nitro & BP powders
Again Federal 215 primers, beeswax over powder wad & 0.3ml home made BP lube (50% each of Neatsfoot oil/Beeswax), Hornardy brass & 340gn gas groove projectile CBE mould.
Average 1800fps
OAL 86.7mm

400gn load (388gn cast)
Duplex load
105gn Wano 2F + 15gn AR2205.
This equates to 150gn BP being each grain of Nitro powder equals 3gn of BP.
Fit grease paper over powder wad between Nitro & BP powders
Again Federal 215 primers, beeswax over powder wad & 0.3ml home made BP lube (50% each of Neatsfoot oil/Beeswax), Hornardy brass & 400gn gas groove projectile CBE mould.
Average 1679fps
OAL 88.7mm

The BP loads require a higher back sight setting to get on target at 50m compared to the NE loads.
All good fun clearing the range of mosquitos when you do so!

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2469
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: The book of the .500 express. [Re: 93x64mm]
      #390381 - 13/03/25 11:20 PM

The Whitworth bore of WR has a major diameter of .523.

I have a CBE .512-340PB mould. I have ordered a .423-440 mould.

I also have a bore lappinging kit.

The Bore is rough, but I am optimistic.

I am going to test fire WR this weekend using Varget/AR2208 and Barnes Original .510-450g.



--------------------
DD, Ret.

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