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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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Ash
.400 member


Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1654
Loc: Australia
.500 Belted Magnum
      #194128 - 19/11/11 07:27 PM

Has anyone heard of this round? Apparently uses the .460 Weatherby as a parent, necked to .510 and shortened to 2.5".
Claimed ballistics are akin to standard .500 Nitro loadings.
Is in Cartridges of the World 12th edition, page 213 in the wildcat section.
Not wanting to have one made, just curious if anyone has or knows someone who uses one and how it goes?
Any pictures for comparison of how it looks would also be much apreciated (I know, I know, there's a photo in the book).

Cheers,
Ash

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Edited by Ash (19/11/11 07:30 PM)

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: Ash]
      #194145 - 20/11/11 02:01 AM



This is a photo of my .505 SRE (in the middle), a cartridge I designed in the late '60's, had built and took to Africa in 1971, where it accounted for, all told, over a period of three safaris, one black rhino, three elephants, and five Cape buffalo.

The cartridge case was formed from .460 WEatherby brass, shortened to 2.500", so as to fit a standard .30-'06 length magazine. Using a 570 grain .510" Kynoch bullet (in the foreground) swaged down to .505", 90 grains of IMR 4064 produced 2150 fps in my 22" barreled P 14 Enfield (visible in the background of the picture).

On the left is my .450 C&W, a rimmed version of the .450 Watts, formed from .375 H&H (flanged) Magnum brass, for use in single shot and double rifles, and on the right my .577 VSRE, formed by shortening .577 NE brass to 2.5", forming a shoulder to headspace on, and turning a rebated rim in the base.

John Buhmiller and I arrived at the same idea at virtually the same time, and in fact, the barrel on my rifle is a Buhmiller barrel. There was also a .500 version of the cartridge, but I never took it to Africa. The reamer was made by Keith Francis and the forming and loading dies by RCBS.

Here are three of the five Cape buffalo, taken in the Selous, Tanzania, 1972:

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: Ash]
      #194148 - 20/11/11 03:23 AM

I've not seen one, Ash, but have fired the full length version - called the .505 Barnes Supreme. That was in 1974. The fellow who made it up, didn't know it was an 'old' wildcat - he thought he'd invented it. There is very little that hasn't been tried.

The shortened version would easily match the .500 Nitro.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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SingleShot
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 22
Loc: Springfield, Virginia, USA
Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #195572 - 02/12/11 03:03 PM

Would the shortened version suffer from a lack of volume as the 458WM was accused of?
Would the lesser volume cause high pressures that would not be a problem in the 500NE?
SingleShot

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: SingleShot]
      #195588 - 03/12/11 12:09 AM

90 grains of IMR 4064 doesn't even flatten the primers in my .505 SRE. 2150 fps with a 570 grain bullet was all I wanted in an 8 3/4 pound rifle.

Naturally my version has higher pressure levels than a .500 NE, but I was neither dealing with an ambiant temperature sensitive propellant like cordite, nor with the pressure limits of a double rifle.

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: xausa]
      #195592 - 03/12/11 01:24 AM

Sounds like a great round for K98 Mauser in .510 caliber.

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: chuck375]
      #195613 - 03/12/11 04:45 AM

A P-17 or P-14 would be better I think - same with the BRNO ZKK 602. The .505 Barnes Supreme I shot was built on the BRNO action. I bought the original unfired .375 H&H barrel from him for $75.00. That was a lot of money to me, then.

I believe a 98 would need substancially more opening up to handle the .50 cal. case and bullet, but has been done - I can picture one in my mind;

There were photographs of the job along with special magazine follower for the 2 shot magazine - but cannot remember where I read about it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1654
Loc: Australia
Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: DarylS]
      #195699 - 04/12/11 01:24 PM

I'll scan the section in CotW on it later if i can work out how to use this contraption. Hopefully the picture is correct for the case, as it shows it to be without a shoulder. Does look neat though.

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.

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500Boswell
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Reged: 21/07/06
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Loc: Queensland
Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: Ash]
      #195709 - 04/12/11 04:41 PM

There was a 98 at Rebel Gun works a couple of years ago which im pretty sure was a 495 A Square [460 necked down and shortened ]must have been built a few years ago as the dies that came with it were iam sure were made by Peter Davern .Would have bought it, only i had a 500 Asquare being built which took foreverrrrrrr to be finished........

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chuck375
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 445
Loc: Colorado Springs CO
Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: 500Boswell]
      #195767 - 05/12/11 02:58 AM

The 495 A-Square has a ghost shoulder like the 470 Capstick. They both headspace on the belt, but provide just enough of a shoulder should you wish to neck size.

--------------------
"There's a saying in prize fighting: Everyone's got a plan until they get hit"

Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness"

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1654
Loc: Australia
Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: Ash]
      #195824 - 05/12/11 07:04 PM

Heres the CotW segment on it.



Oh and xausa, fantastic cartridges, rifle, and hunt!

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Edited by Ash (05/12/11 07:09 PM)

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xausa
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Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: Ash]
      #195868 - 06/12/11 06:41 AM

Interesting to note that with a 26" barrel (four inches longer than mine) 80 grains of Varget produced roughtly the same velocity as 90 grains of IMR 4064 in my rifle. My calculations show a recoil energy of 67 ft/lbs and a recoil velocity of 20 fps for the 11 pound rifle and the listed load, versus 89 ft/lbs and 26 fps recoil energy for my rifle and load.

Just to show what adrenaline will do, I once put four shots broadside into a running buffalo, shooting as fast as I could operate the bolt, and had no memory of felt recoil afterwards, and no soreness or bruising.

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Ash
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Reged: 10/05/11
Posts: 1654
Loc: Australia
Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: xausa]
      #195920 - 06/12/11 05:53 PM

xausa - What bolt handle was used on your P14? Its rather attractive and i find myself staring at it..

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: Ash]
      #195935 - 06/12/11 10:46 PM

My late gunsmith, friend, and business partner, Harry Creighton, used to fabricate bolt handles on his lathe. Over the years he perfected his technique to the point that I find it difficult to appreciate most other gunsmith's work. This particular handle was purposefully made long to supply additional leverage if needed in a tight situation. It was never necessary, since the rifle extracts and ejects like a dream.

Harry's bolt handles are not only asthetically pleasinig, they clear very low scope mountings and are ideal for rapid fire work. In my opinion, Harry's bolt handles rank with Biesen, Burgess, and Griffin & Howe as the best.

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DarylS
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Posts: 27650
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .500 Belted Magnum [Re: xausa]
      #195965 - 07/12/11 04:17 AM

xausa - I am surprised at the ballistics of the straight case using a mere 80gr. of what would be a fairly slow powder in the straight case - in comparrison to your 90gr. 4064 (slightly faster) load in a greater capacity case.

This is, unless you are running substancially lower pressures - while the straight case at 2.5" is running max pressures for it's design, say 55,000psi.

As far as barrel length goes, I saw little change in my own testing when using such efficient rounds (yes there was some drop in vel., but not like large cased, small bullet rounds).

What I did see, was the greater capacity case needed considerably more powder to match the speed of a smaller case, but higher pressure load.

The similarity between these two rounds is virtually identical to what I got with the .458 Alaskan at 2.1" compared to a .45/70, also 2.1" in a bolt gun. It took a lot more powder in the .458, to match a top-end load for the smaller case, but the greater capacity of the larger case could do, oh, so much more. But of course, how much more is necessary in these large rounds - it's fun, though.

Those .50's are pretty cool rounds! Like a .450 Dakota compared to a .458 Win Mag.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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