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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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mauserand9mm
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what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle?
      #162917 - 28/06/10 05:12 PM

I want to just make it into group 3 - would a 500 Nitro Express be the way to go?

One of the regulars uses a 505 Gibbs but I only weigh 75kg and am sure I would not enjoy the Gibbs too much. I suppose it could be loaded down though.

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alexbeer
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #162919 - 28/06/10 06:00 PM

Hello mauserand9mm,

In a well balanced rifle of reasonable weight that FITS YOU a 500NE will be just fine for group 3 (and for anything else that walks this earth too for that matter) It does recoil, sure, but if the previously mentioned requirements re balance, weight and fit are adhered to, it certainly shouldn't hurt. More like a big shove really. After building a couple of 500's and using some others, I grown quite fond of the 500 NE 3". Actually I now have all the components put aside to build a double 500 for myself (one day , sigh, not enough time at the moment )

Best

Alex

alexbeer.com

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CHAPUISARMES
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: alexbeer]
      #162920 - 28/06/10 06:31 PM

Quote:

Actually I now have all the components put aside to build a double 500 for myself (one day , sigh, not enough time at the moment )



"Believe it"

Guess Who....

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Con
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: CHAPUISARMES]
      #162921 - 28/06/10 07:04 PM

In my opinion ... 'easiest' would be a 500Nitro built on a Ruger No1. 2 shots in 10 seconds isn't hard.

Otherwise a 50cal wildcat built on a CZ/Brno, but its cheaper to avoid the feeding issues and stick to a Ruger No1.
Cheers...
Con

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: Con]
      #162923 - 28/06/10 07:55 PM

For those that don't know, the following is part of the Rules for Group 3 competition for the Big Game Rifle Club.

Group 3 Nitro


* Calibre over .485
* Minimum Bullet weight 525 grains
* Minimum Muzzle Energy 5,300 ft.lbs.



Courses of fire:

National Event: 8 shots

Range
Number of Shots
Position
Timing

50 yds
2
Off-hand
Up to 5 minutes

50 yds
2
Off-hand
Up to 5 minutes

25 yds
2 X 2 shots
Off-hand each pair
In 10 seconds

Big Game Rifle Club competition rules

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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alexbeer
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: Con]
      #162930 - 28/06/10 10:55 PM

Quote:

In my opinion ... 'easiest' would be a 500Nitro built on a Ruger No1. 2 shots in 10 seconds isn't hard.



I usually shoot group one (375 H&H) and group two (450NE) with Ruger No.1's. Have also shot the "Charging Animal" (6 shots in 35 seconds) and the "Special Snap" (8 shots in 35 seconds) with the No.1 in 450NE......and there is enough time to do it too. Sometimed there is a few seconds left over if I do it right and don't fumble and drop any shells

Damn good fun.

Actually, if anyone has not tried Big Game Rifle Club shooting, get along to a shoot and have a go, you will proberbly like it.....a lot.

Best

Alex

alexbeer.com

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Huvius
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: alexbeer]
      #162937 - 28/06/10 11:42 PM

I really wish there was a Big Game Rifle Club here in Colorado!
I don't suppose, if loaded down, the 505 would meet the energy requirement. Or is it simply the original specification of the cartridge? Loading down to make the shooting easier would certainly be frowned upon, no?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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xausa
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: Huvius]
      #162944 - 29/06/10 01:00 AM

I think it's a mistake to assume that shooters who weigh less have more difficulty with recoil than their more hefty collegues. My friend John Buhmiller probably weighed 150 pounds soaking wet, but he killed more elephant and buffalo than any other American I am aware of, using a .460 Weatherby necked up to .50 caliber, which significantly improved on the performance of the .500 NE.

My theory is that smaller shooters don't have the amount of inertia created by the greater body mass of heavier shooters, which means that they tend to recoil with the rifle, instead of resisting the force of the recoil for an instant before yielding to it.

Shooting my .577 has taught me to do a little dance, right foot, left foot, right foot, in response to the push of the 750 grain bullet at 2050 fps on the 12 pound rifle and my shoulder. It's nothing like the jab of my 8 3/4 pound .505, although I have never noticed the .505's recoil when shooting at game.

In recoil the factor to be concerned with is recoil velocity of the rifle. My .577 and my .505 have about the same amount of recoil, reflected in foot pounds. Where they differ is in recoil velocity.
20 fps is, in my opinion, the limit for bearable recoil.

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grandveneur
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? *DELETED* [Re: xausa]
      #162952 - 29/06/10 01:43 AM

Post deleted by grandveneur

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450_Ackley
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: grandveneur]
      #162972 - 29/06/10 07:27 AM

Nitrox,
Sorry to be a bit anal here, but the course of fire you have is slightly incorrect.

It is -
50 metres 2 rounds offhand in 5 minutes
50 metres 2 rounds rapid fire offhand in 10 seconds
25 metres 2 x 2 rounds rapid fire offhand in 10 seconds for each 2 rounds.

Please remember that in the rapid fire events in BGR you can start with a round in the chamber and cocked, ready to go. I shoot Blackpowder express with a 450 NE in a Ruger #1, 10 seconds with a #1 is more than enough.
The most popular Group 3 rifle in QLD amongst our shooters is indeed a Ruger #1 in 500 NE. As a bonus, you can also double up and use it for Blackpowder express as well, 2 events with the one rifle.
Personally, I shoot a bolt gun in 500 Jeffery, but I had it before the 450 NE, otherwise I too would have built a 500 NE.
Build it up to about 10 lbs and you will not have any dramas shooting it, 75 kgs or not. We have a lady in our club that shoots a 510 Wells that weighs about 11 lbs, she would not weigh any more than 60-65 kgs at a guess.
Recoil tolerance levels have very little to do with what you weigh.

FYI, you'll need a 535 grain bullet doing a minimum of about 2150 fps to make the energy levels.

Regards,
David Commens

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9dot3x74R
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: grandveneur]
      #162975 - 29/06/10 07:34 AM

A very inexpensive entry rifle is a .499 Hubel Express based on an H&R .500s&w.

These rifles are available in Australia, but getting it rechamberd to 499HE can be problematic. Mine was done by Ed himself.

It's based on the .450NE#2 so it has huge case capacity and can be loaded to the required energy whilst keeping pressures low. Slow to very slow powders will keep the case full enough not to need fillers.

The main problem is the availability of 525gn (or greater) projectiles. The options seem to be make your own in lead or resize some .505 Woodleighs. It has a .500 bore, not the more usual .510 as used in other "500"'s. Maybe if enough people start using it we could convince HRBC or Woodleigh to make some bullets for it.

You will need to add some weight to the rifle to make it more comfortable to shoot.

Btw, for those concerned about the ability of the h&r to handle the pressures.... the original chambering of .500s&w operates at a much higher pressure than the .499HE.

Edited by 9dot3x74R (29/06/10 08:00 AM)

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mauserand9mm
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #162980 - 29/06/10 08:52 AM

So 500NE would be a good choice. Would the CZ550 magnum be a good action to use?

The CZ550 magnum is also available in a higher grade version (ie more expensive) in 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs. Would either of these cartridges works okay with slightly reduced loads to meet the minimum power requirement for group 3?

(I would love a double but price precludes me from one of these yet [pending lotto win], next choice would be a bolt action. Actually how does the single shot compare price wise with a bolt action?)

I use a 375H&H for group 1 and 458WM in group 2, both are CZ550s. They have heavy and have excellent recoil pads. I can shoot the 458 off a bench okay - probably all day with 400gn projectiles, but not sure about the 500gn (I have shot 2 x 5 shot groups with them off a bench - no pain or bruising but they make you feel very "un-loved").

I've watched the guy shooting the 505 Gibbs (he's probably around 90kg) and it knocks him back a fair bit. It looks much worse when standing behind him. He said that he is usually sore the next day but he does fire many rounds, lots more than the match requires. He fires many practice rounds before, during and after the match and is a very good shot.

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Con
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #162990 - 29/06/10 10:40 AM

Quote:

So 500NE would be a good choice. Would the CZ550 magnum be a good action to use?



That combination wont work ... rimmed case in a bolt action.

You have two options. Cheapest would be to find a used No1 and re-barrel/rechamber to 500NE and specify to the 'smith that you don't want the bells, whistles and fruit. Just a working rifle that functions and works. You may come out with change from about $2500.

A CZ could be rechambered to a number of 50cal cartridges. 500ASquare is probably the easiest using a CZ in 416Rigby as your donor ... you may get change from $2500.

There are no cheap routes to a 50cal unfortunately! Mate built a 'cheap 50cal' ... cost him $750 donor Ruger MkII action, $350 PacNor chambered/profiled barrel (now unavailable in Australia ) ... was going good so far ... then cost another $1600 and 8 months to finish it.

When all is said and done, a $4000 CZ550 in 500Jeffery is a BARGAIN!
Cheers...
Con

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450_Ackley
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: Con]
      #162996 - 29/06/10 03:51 PM

Exactly as Con said, a CZ in 500 J will be the cheapest option, a second-hand #1 you might get for $800-00 to $1000-00 perhaps, bear in mind that an MAB 510 barrel will cost you about double what a normal calibre will, remember getting a 510 barrel from the US might also be out of the question, being the same diameter as a 50 BMG might preclude you from importing one, or getting one imported.
Got a mate that bought a CZ in 500 J, one really important thing to remember with them is that the throat is ridiculously long, we did a chamber cast, and it measures at least an inch in length, way too long in my opinion.
He found out the hard way that only loads that pushed a 535 grainer at 2400 fps would fireform correctly, anything lighter failed to form, or even fire at all. Theory is that the gases tended to push past the projectile while it was in the freebore area. Not a nice problem to have at all, and Yes, we tried seating 600 Woodleighs out as far as possible to hold the case back, and to jam the bullet into the rifling, couldn't do it, the throat/freebore was longer than that. He ended up using a Winchester Australia recommended load of 130 grains of Win 760 behind a 535 Woodleigh, they do around 2400 fps and according to Quickload, that load is in the "purple" region for pressure limits. But that's all that seems to work, other than Norma factory ammo, but at $300-00 per 10, it's a bit dear to shoot.

In my opinion, get a Ruger #1 in any calibre, cry at paying the money for an MAB barrel, and build your own. then you have to think about cases and reloading dies as well, they are a little dearer than 243 cases and dies!

Regards,
David Commens.

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Con
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #163002 - 29/06/10 04:50 PM

Last time I asked, TSE (formerly MAB) charged over $500 maybe $600 for a 50cal barrel, but they used 50mm barstock. When I spoke with Tony about the cost compared to a delivered PacNor, he stated they had a cheaper option coming from 40mm barstock. Might have dropped the price about $100. I havent checked prices recently though. Tobler may also make them, likewise Sprinter ... best would be a Lothar-Walther.

Anything 50cal and above is near impossible to get out of the States. Australia's PacNor agent also cant get them.

After the CZ factory rifle, your best option to get in 'cheap' is a No1 in 500NE. Built plain and clean ... you wont lose money on it. In my opinion, use a S/H varmint rifle as your basis and you get a wider fore-end which helps you hang on. Tough thing is, they are difficult to build 'heavy' ... but there's nothing to fear from a 12lb 500NE ... I'd build it even lighter at 10lb. If you had a donor action and a spare $4k ... I'd have Bob deVries build a 577NE ... he does a great job!
Cheers...
Con

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mauserand9mm
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: Con]
      #163014 - 29/06/10 09:12 PM

450_Ackley, Actually, I suspect that all of the CZ550 magnums have long throats (I haven't checked mine though), and this may explain why I can't get my 375 to shoot the lighter projectiles accurately - they are just too far away from the rifling at the start and must misalign. The heavier (300 and 350gns) round nose shoot okay. 220gns will do 2-3 MOA @ 100 yards and the heavier ones around 1 1/4 MOA (best group 3/4 MOA @ 100 yards and 1 MOA @ 200 yards). I know 3 inches @ 100 yards is plenty of accuracy for larger game, it's just that the model 602 375H&H I had many years ago would do MOA with everything, so I had high expectations. Besides, there is no reason the larger calibres shouldn't be accurate.

And this would also explain the dramas I had with reduced loads in my CZ550 458WM (with cast projectiles). I got about 3 projectiles stuck at the start of the rifling (on different occasions of course), and those hard cast projectiles are very hard to knock out. Even a primer in an empty case will jam a lead projectile solid. With so much freebore, initial ignition was unreliable with a reduced charge (ie lots of empty space in the case).

Anyway, I've highjacked my own thread.

So either 500 NE in a single shot or 500 Jeffrey in a bolt action - I've got some consideration to do (and checking for actions out there).

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450_Ackley
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #163017 - 29/06/10 09:40 PM

You're allowed to highjack your own thread!
But isn't it good to finally shed some light on why the newer CZ's seem to perform with either heavier bullets or charges?

I'd seriously look at the Ruger #1 in 500 NE, especially if you ever think you might shoot Blackpowder Express.

Also, it might be good if you spoke to the fellow shooter in Bris with the CZ 505 Gibbs, ask him if you could possibly shoot a whole Group 3 match with his 505, at least then you will know after the 8 shots if it will/might suit you. Also I hold bi-monthly BGR shoots at the complex at Millmerran, you would be most welcome to come out and fire my 500 Jeffery to see what you think of it, if you like.
And lastly, the QLD BGR titles are in Gladstone this coming October (I think) I'll bet that if you fronted up you'd get at least a few Group 3 rifles thrust into your hands and told to have a shot. I'm certain there will be a few Ruger #1's in 500 NE there, also a 500 A-Square or two from up north.
Come and have a shot and see what you think.

Regards,
David.

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RigbyUser
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Re: what's a good cartridge for group 3 Big Game Rifle? [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #166250 - 15/08/10 05:45 PM

Guys, I can support most of what's been put up. No cheap entry into the 50 cal club. I shoot a custom 500 Jeffrey built by Pro Cal and company. Peter and the boys did a wonderful job to get the thing to feed 4+1 from a staggered magazine. When it was done and dusted (they had 3 goes at getting it absolutely right) I am sure the job owed them money but professional pride ensured they got the job done.

Pete did mention they won't be doing a second like that, unless someone has very deep pockets LoL

Mine will shoot the 535 grain Woodleighs at 2360 fps and group into a ragged hole at 50 and 100 yards.

It has become my favourite rifle weighing in at 11 lbs loaded with sling.

It has won numerous BGRC group 3 events and has been used to take some impressive buff and boar.

Bloody great cartridge the big Jeffrey, but expensive to get right.

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