bakerb
.224 member
Reged: 03/09/08
Posts: 48
Loc: SW MO
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As my other most recent post illustrates, I'm a newby, and dreaming of safari and doubles.
My question. . .
If you could only own/buy one double rifle, and use it for everything from eland at 100 or maybe 150 yards, buffalo, lion, and elephant, and you were willing to scope it (blasphemous I know), what would you consider for the perfect cartridge?
I would love to go on safari and take two rifles. . . my familiar best friend Remington 700 .300 RUM, and a nice double with a low power scope. Something more than adequate for elephant, buffalo at less than 100 yards, and lion either on a baited or tracking hunt.
I've done lots of searching here and on the competitive website. Some calibers I've considered. . .
.500/.416. . . but availability of components may be the killer, although with it's higher velocity, seems like it might be a great cartridge with some versatility. I've never been able to find a ballistics table though showing expected bullet drop past 100 yards
.450/.400. . . a popular sounding cartridge with a big following. Available components and freely available factory ammo.
.450 NE 3.25". . . One choice that I'm considering really hard. Highly recommended. Slimmer action and possibly lighter rifle than a .470 or .500, and seems ballistically identical to a .470 or .500. Nostalgic round that predates most other NE rounds. Factory ammo, big choice of .458 bullets. But what's it gonna act like with a scope at 100 yards? How will it be for lion?
.470 NE. . . also a choice I'm really considering. What more can I say about this round. Is it really gonna be any better than a .450 NE? Especially considering that I'm sure I won't be hunting elephant a lot
.500 NE. . . sounds cool. May not be able to handle the recoil, I don't know. And it seems especially blasphemous to scope a .500. And again, what's this big round do after 100 yards? How will it be for a lion killer at ranges approaching 100 yards maybe?
Really, in my mind, comes down to the 500/416, the .450 NE 3.25", and the .470.
And Yeah yeah yeah, I've heard and read every argument for either a 3 rifle battery, or if only a two rifle battery, using a .375 as the light rifle. However, I like my .300. It's perfectly adequate for any antelope (even eland I would submit), and I have absolutely no desire to own a bolt action "medium" or to use one. And as a rabid bowhunter, the thought of passing up a 150 yard shot at a buffalo or other critter because all I have is the double, doesn't bother me. I've had to watch plenty of trophies pass me by at 60 yards and not being able to do anything. I'm used to it. (although passing a 150 yard shot at a lion would hurt a lot, especially considering that I've read it's getting to be one of the toughest african trophies)
What's your take?
Sorry for the book
Bake
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Shots rang out. . . as shots are wont to do.
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CHAPUISARMES
.416 member
Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA
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Hi bakerb,
I will personally take your third option, the .450 N.E. 3.25" as I have just bought a Sabatti in that caliber. My reasons are fairly simple, there is a great choice of projectile weights in the .458 diameter, fairly soft recoil compared to a .458 and the best part of all is that the Sabatti is well priced, in fact under priced based on the quality that I have seen. Yes, it's not a H&H but I could never afford one of those so why go without.
Cheers,
Jeff Gray 
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"Travel Light, Travel Fast and carry a Big Bore"
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AkMike
.416 member
Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
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Here's another vote for the 450 NE! The 500 is a touch stronger, but it's a twin to the 470 without the oddball size so finding reloading stuff is easier.
I have 2 already and may add a third someday , 'Just because!'
The 500/450 should be considered in this if you're looking for an older one.
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"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand
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DarylS
.700 member
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27526
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
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9.3x74IMP - or .375x74IMP. The 9.3 wold handle factory amo, but I can't imagine ever having to. The .375, just because of the bullet assortment.
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Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
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pato
.300 member
Reged: 26/04/05
Posts: 212
Loc: Katherine NT
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450 3/4
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93mouse
.375 member
Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
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In theory I see only 2 logic scenarios unfolding:
1. Use your .300 on lion and take scopeless .470NE for up&close on buff or ele...
2. Dump .300 and take (scoped  ) double for everything in .500/.416 (matches .416 Rigby's balistics), .375 H&H Fl. or Belted, 9.3x74R maybe...
Then there is praxis...
P.S. IMO 450/.400 lacks some speed to be perfect on lion...
Edited by 93mouse (24/06/10 11:49 PM)
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Grenadier
.375 member
Reged: 20/02/08
Posts: 570
Loc: North of the Columbia, USA
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+1 .450 N.E.
I've never hunted Africa or dangerous game animals. But if I was choosing a rifle based on your criteria I would go with .450 3-1/4". I have a single shot in that caliber and I really like the cartridge. I shoot Hornady factory loads out of it with wonderful results and I have no trouble getting the ammo. It does recoil but it feels like a lot less than the recoil of a 470NE. The .450 is the traditional standard to which the other big bores are compared.
BUT..... if I was to have only one double gun for small to medium to large thin skinned game minus elephant and buffalo to 100 yards then I would choose a 12 gauge Paradox gun.
"I have killed everything with it (12 bore 'Paradox') from tiger to snipe.--- E.H.R.H."
From Holland & Holland's catalog of 1910.
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CHAPUISARMES
.416 member
Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA
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Hi Grenadier,
I'm with you,
Quote:
I've never hunted Africa or dangerous game animals. But if I was choosing a rifle based on your criteria I would go with .450 3-1/4". I have a single shot in that caliber and I really like the cartridge. I shoot Hornady factory loads out of it with wonderful results and I have no trouble getting the ammo. It does recoil but it feels like a lot less than the recoil of a 470NE. The .450 is the traditional standard to which the other big bores are compared.Quote:
And with the variation of bullet weights available make it an all round choice.
Cheers,
Jeff Gray
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"Travel Light, Travel Fast and carry a Big Bore"
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bonanza
.400 member
Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
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450/400
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"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.
"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus
"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."
"Yo! Mr. White"
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jcs271
.224 member
Reged: 28/07/09
Posts: 19
Loc: Still Free State of Montana
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Use your scoped 300 on lion and large plains game, get the(iron sight)450NE double for everything else.
I also have a Sabatti double in 450NE and it is a GREAT rifle. I paid $4900 for it New in the box and it is as well built as my name brand british double. I think that they really are "undervalued" or more likely, the others are just seriously "overvalued"!
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"carrying a fine rifle in good country makes a man feel like a King."
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Dutch44
.275 member
Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri
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Either 450-400 cartridge.
Dutch
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doubleriflenut
.300 member
Reged: 27/11/08
Posts: 106
Loc: Chile
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In my opinion, the 470 is the "go to caliber". After owning several double rifles, one must consider the availability of ammo and the 470 is produced by Federal! My favorite caliber is the 476 Westley Richards and the one I had was superbly accurate! Which ever you choose, have fun and enjoy shooting it.
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CHAPUISARMES
.416 member
Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA
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Hi jcs271,
Quote:
I also have a Sabatti double in 450NE and it is a GREAT rifle. I paid $4900 for it New in the box and it is as well built as my name brand British double. I think that they really are "undervalued" or more likely, the others are just seriously "overvalued"!
I could not agree more, I owned a Chapuis and though it was the "Ducks Gut's" and was reluctant to by a Sabatti but now that I have, it is every bit as good as the Chapuis and cheaper. My two complaints was with the recoil pad which has just been replaced by Ross Waghorn (should have her back mid next week) and the fact Sabatti regulated it with Kynamco (Kynoch) ammunition which is not available in Australia.
I have advised the Importer and he is going to speak to Sabatti about the problems but outside of that, it is the my new "Ducks Gut's" in a D.R.
Cheers,
Jeff Gray 
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"Travel Light, Travel Fast and carry a Big Bore"
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ozhunter
.400 member
Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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Jeff,
Whats the suggested price for a Sabatti 450?
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CHAPUISARMES
.416 member
Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA
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Hi Adam,
It is or was around $8500 but I paid a little less. They are worth the money,
Cheers Mate,
Jeff
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"Travel Light, Travel Fast and carry a Big Bore"
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Mike_Bailey
.400 member
Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
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amazing value ! best, Mike (never handled one but you guys seem to rate them)
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CHAPUISARMES
.416 member
Reged: 16/01/08
Posts: 2908
Loc: DUBBO, NSW, AUSTRALIA
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Hi Mike,
I am not paid a commission to brag about them, they are really a top shelf, modern manufacture rifle and as Bill Keith said to me yesterday from www.traderkeith.com "They just chose not to double or make the price high" that about says it all.
As I said before, the quality is as good as any Chapuis but you have to get used to the "Bloodhound" opening lever (just a different look) but outside of that what can I say....
Cheers,
Jeff Gray
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Yochanan
.375 member
Reged: 26/01/03
Posts: 912
Loc: Volksdiktatur Schweden
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As 93mouse stated .500/416, 375 Flanged or 9,3x74r would be my choice of "one double".
Either can also be used for wild boars, bears, moose, bison/buffalo elsewhere once the African adventures are over.
Norma loads ammo for 500/416 and 375 Flanged.
Cheers
Johan
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© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.
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CptCurl
.450 member
Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5310
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
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Complete balderdash!
There's no reason to have only one DR. It's the same as asking what cartridge if you can have only one bolt, single shot, lever, or other rifle.
We really don't behave that way.
The proper question is, "What cartridge for the first double rifle?"
You can't stop at just one!
Curl
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RoscoeStephenson.com
YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.
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JabaliHunter
.400 member
Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
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I would choose between (and be more than happy with) any of:
9,3x74 for an all round rifle;
.450/.400 3" for a lighter DG rifle; or
.450NE 3 1/4" for a heavier DG rifle.
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grandveneur
.400 member
Reged: 21/09/08
Posts: 1356
Loc: France / Germany
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If you want a scoped DR , take a 450/400NE , imo the last one that you can use scoped ! The 450/400NE is not the first choice, and imo a little bit marginal for elefants ! Better a big one like a 470NE or a 500NE without a scope ! But than , with a 300RUM as second rifle, a light caliber for long range shooting on light to medium game, you have a lack in your battery for Africa !
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cowboy
.275 member
Reged: 20/03/04
Posts: 60
Loc: Northern Wyoming, USA
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Bake,
I wrestled with this problem myself. It is nice not to have to drag a lot of rifles
around, I think 2 guns is probably the maximum you really want to go to Africa with.
If dangerous game is on your quota (elephant, buff, hippo, lion,...) & one rifle is
a double then it is nice to have a scoped bolt gun as a back-up. I had a 416 Rigby
but traded it in for a nice 375 H&H. When cat hunting you need to shoot a lot of bait
& for plains game it works well. You can also use it for anything bigger as well, including
elephant. With the 5kg weight limit on ammo, the difference in weight between a 416
& 375 was noticeable (especially when taking along 30-40 rounds of a larger NE double)
For an all-around double I have a vintage 450/400 3 1/4" NE Charles Lancaster & have
taken elephant, lion & 2 buff with it. It is not scoped, but that would certainly make it
more versatile. I guess I have been reading too many posts about being "undergunned"
with a 450/400 when going after elephant, so I went and acquired a nice 500/465 H&H
that I will be taking this Sept to Tanzania to use for elephant. This is my solution to your
dilemma, a 375 H&H bolt action paired with a larger double (500/465).
Good Hunting, Jim
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FATBOY404
.400 member
Reged: 14/11/09
Posts: 1730
Loc: QLD
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HI JEFF.
I will personally take your third option, the .450 N.E. 3.25" as I have just bought a Sabatti in that caliber. My reasons are fairly simple, there is a great choice of projectile weights in the .458 diameter, fairly soft recoil compared to a .458 and the best part of all is that the Sabatti is well priced, in fact under priced based on the quality that I have seen. Yes, it's not a H&H but I could never afford one of those so why go without.
Why would a 450 3 1/4 have less recoil than a 458 unless you load them back.
Greame Wright's book has 450 loads regulated @ 2125 fps with a 480 grain projectile.
Hornady has the 458 @ 2150 with a 500 grain projectile.
So I dont think there would be any difference between them for recoil unless you reduce one.The other thing that amazes me is the 458 gets a lot of critics for poor penetration and the like but the 450 3 1/4 is everyone's darling yet they use the same wieght bullets at the same velosity.
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"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"
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ozhunter
.400 member
Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
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The problem is that a lot of 458Win does not go the recommended speed.
If that can be sorted out then there should be no problem.
The question I have is, does faster or slower burning powder change recoil?
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FATBOY404
.400 member
Reged: 14/11/09
Posts: 1730
Loc: QLD
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This is the reply I got to your question Oz.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=150707&an=0&page=2#Post150707
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"WHATEVER BLOWS YOUR HAIR BACK"
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