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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 .416 Rigby
      #158997 - 15/04/10 07:38 AM

Looking for something else, I came across this listing:

http://www.gunsinternational.com:80/Winchester-model-70-pre-64-416-Rigby.cfm?gun_id=100118176

I was taken aback, because I had never seen or heard of a .416 Rigby on a Model 70 action. I wonder if anyone else has heard of such a thing or has had experience with one. I have a pre-64 Model 70 in caliber .375 H&H which has had the barrel cut back to 22" and would be a likely candidate for this conversion, if it is a practical one.

One of my concerns is that the .375 H&H cartridge is .120" shorter than the .416 Rigby, and the Model 70 magazine box is already stretched to accomodate the .375. Another is that the Model 70 bolt face might not be large enough in diameter to safely accomodate the Rigby case head.

Still, it seems unlikely that Griffin and Howe would undertake such a project if they didn't think it would work flawlessly.

Comments, anyone?

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congomike
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Reged: 20/04/03
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Re: Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 .416 Rigby [Re: xausa]
      #159360 - 23/04/10 11:02 AM

Harry Selby had a .416 Rigby built on a standard length M98 Mauser action. That is shorter than the pre-64 action. His Mauser was shot enough so that it had to be rebarreled once. So, that being said, I think it would be a fine rifle.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 .416 Rigby [Re: congomike]
      #161608 - 07/06/10 02:18 AM

I e-mailed Paul Chapman at Griffin & Howe about the feasabilty of this conversion.

Paul,

I stumbled across this rifle while looking for something else and it started me thinking: Is this a conversion you are still performing? Do you recommend it?

http://www.gunsinternational.com:80/Winchester-model-70-pre-64-416-Rigby.cfm?gun_id=100118176

Are there feeding problems that need to be resolved? How do you deal with the fact that the .416 Rigby loaded cartridge is .120" longer than the .375 H&H?

Will the Model 70 bolt face safely open up to accomodate the Rigby case head?


Thanks,

Bill Warren

Here is his reply:

Hello Bill,

Not sure if we spoke about this but we do not recommend this conversion as too much has to be removed from the locking lug to fit and feed the cartridge.

We had one where the lug was recessing and causing excessive headspace and inconsistent vertical stringing.


Paul Chapman
Vice President
Director of Gun Smithing
Griffin & Howe


Presumably Paul was referring to the area behind the lower locking lug recess when he said "removed from the locking lug".

I know that standard length Mauser 98's have been converted to .416 Rigby, but just because it has been done does not make it a good idea. Harry Selby's rifle must have passed proof at some point, assuming the conversion was made in England, but I would certainly not spend money on such a dicey conversion, with so many relatively inexpensive genuine magnum length actions, such as the BRNO 602/CZ 550 readily available.

The Model 70 sold, incidentally. It would be interesting to see if any comments, pro or con, are made about it on the internet.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1801
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 .416 Rigby [Re: xausa]
      #161609 - 07/06/10 05:21 AM

Once talked with Mr. Paul Roberts, then owner of Rigby's. He told me all their 1950s conversions of standard length M98 Mauser actions were coming back to Rigby's sooner or later because of bolt lug set back. IMHO and in Paul Roberts' opening up a standard length action to take the .416 Rigby is one of the less brilliant ideas.

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3604
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Re: Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 .416 Rigby [Re: kuduae]
      #161620 - 07/06/10 11:43 AM

I would have thought that there would be no difference at all in the chance of a standard action having bolt lug problems more often (or sooner)than a magnum bolt since the lugs on both are identical.
What about 500 Jeffery actions? Probably more oomph than a 416Rigby.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 .416 Rigby [Re: Huvius]
      #161625 - 07/06/10 01:44 PM

It's not the bolt lugs which are the problem: it's the bolt lug recesses in the receiver. When the magazine well on a standard length Model 98 Mauser action, or for that matter on a pre-64 Model 70 Winchester action, is opened up fore and aft enough to accomodate the Rigby cartridge and to adapt the feed ramp to the larger cartridge, metal is taken the receiver off directly behind the lower locking lug recess, to the point that pressure on the lower lug can distort the recess, causing, as Paul Chapman says, headspace problems and stringing.

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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 .416 Rigby [Re: xausa]
      #161657 - 08/06/10 02:09 AM

I see.
I was envisioning "bolt lug setback" as something else - namely issues with the bolt lugs specifically, rather than the recesses in the action.
I imagine that for this to happen to the recesses in the action, all lugs would have to end up pushing rearward, the top and the rear lug included.
Anybody have actual measurements or good pictures of the "inletting" of the ramp to accommodate a big shell in a std. length action? Looking at my 416 (mag. action), doesn't look to be any more metal behind the lower recess than on my 404 or 500 (std. actions).

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1801
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 .416 Rigby [Re: Huvius]
      #161664 - 08/06/10 06:21 AM

Both the .404 and the 12.7x70 Schueler aka .500 Jeffery were designed by companies who could not get Mauser Magnum actions at that time. Remember, up to WW" Mauser frowned upon the idea of opening standard length actions for longer cartridges. Holland &Holland used magnum length actions exclusively on their pre-WW2 .375 Magnum rifles, they only used, like Rigby, opened up standard length actions in the decades after WW2 when magnum length actions were not available any more. Today, German proofhouses carefully scrutinize opened up actions set up for the .375 H&H, .404. They will probably not allow an action opened up for the .416 Rigby. According to a Mauser table in Jon Speed's book the .404 and the .500 needed a magazine box 82mm long, the .375H&H 85mm, while the .416 Rigby needs 87.5mm. As the opened up action for the .375 is right at the absolute borderline, opening up an additional .1" is past that borderline. The difference in Magazine length from .404 and .500 to .416 Rigby is 5.5mm, exactly the length difference from the standard to the magnum length.

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1801
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Re: Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 .416 Rigby [Re: kuduae]
      #161665 - 08/06/10 06:36 AM

BTW, I have seen several Ferlach made .375 H&H rifles on opened-up standard length M98 actions, made in the 1960s-70s, that suffered from the same problem of lower bolt lug recess set back. Really beautiful, fully engraved custom rifles, but in opening up the actions and filing a working feed ramp, those Ferlach guys removed as much metal from the receiver ring that only the outest edge of the right/bottom locking lug was still supported by the remains of the recess.

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
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Loc: Western NC
Re: Pre-64 Winchester Model 70 .416 Rigby [Re: xausa]
      #161705 - 08/06/10 10:57 PM

An alternative to opening up an action is to lengthen it. Take two identical actions, such as M98s or M1917s, cut them in two about 1/2" off center, and weld them back together matching the long pieces together, and the short pieces together. This results in a long "magnum" action, and a short "Kurtz" action with one fell swoop. Frank de Haas alludes to this in his book Bolt Action Rifles.

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