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BPEBuff
.275 member


Reged: 24/03/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Norfolk, England
.450 BPE Pyrodex loads?
      #157329 - 24/03/10 07:29 PM

Gent's,

Just joined your excellent forum and wondered if anyone has used Pyrodex in BPE loads? I have just aquired a J. Lawson .450 Express hammer DR (BP proof only) and in deference to her age and beauty I intend to use just Swiss or Pyrodex CTG for my loads. I have both gas checked and hollow base 300 gr heads of .458" and will be using standard large rifle primers. I have a copy of Graeme Wright's excellent book (3rd Edition)and although a mine of information there is little reference to the use of Pyrodex so any help out there greatly appreciated. The obvious course of action is to fill the case leaving enough space for a grease cookie and seat the head to the correct OAL? I intend to go down this route as I have a rare 38-40 Remington Hepburn Sporting rifle which works just fine with Swiss and Pyrodex CTG but this is my first DR so any info most welcome.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27506
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .450 BPE Pyrodex loads? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #157350 - 24/03/10 11:09 PM

Please use only real BP - the phony powders, Pyro and T series along with Black Mag 3 & I think the Shokey stuff are composed of 17% of the chemical that made corrosive primers, corrosive - potassium chlorate, ie: percholates. th is stuff makes pits, then excavates them with firing pulses. You might get away with it for a while - then maybe not.
I'd definitely NOT use it in any antique.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_366
.400 member


Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: .450 BPE Pyrodex loads? [Re: DarylS]
      #157359 - 25/03/10 12:07 AM

I think they changed some of the potassium nitrate against potassium perchlorate to elevate ignition temperatures and reduce sensitivity of the bp.

A way to adapt it to the modern human perhaps? Daryl is right, use ordinary bp, the perchlorate gives chlorate gases when burning, and those gases eventually turn into hydroclorid acid.
If you go and have a hamburger after a session at the range, and not right home to clean the rifle, it will corrode at some time.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27506
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .450 BPE Pyrodex loads? [Re: 450_366]
      #157376 - 25/03/10 03:38 AM

Spot-on, Andreas.
Compared to Black Powder's neutral fouling, the phoney's are bad news as they don't need moisture to hurt the gun, whereas BP fouling does.

The actual effects on the steel are also different - whereas BP fouling, with the addition of moisture (above 35% humidity required), will cause a barrel to rust and eventually pit, the chlorates actually eat away (corrode) the steel, beneath the surface causing a little bubble, then the 'blister' comes off, leaving sharp edged pits with a V shaped bottom. These will deepen from normal firing pulses & have been known to go through 1/4" of steel in short time.

Yes, I know, some guys have been using this stuff for years and have not hurt their barrels - they think. A bore scope will show whether there is damage or not. Some of it depends on the barrel steel's compostion, ie: alloys. Most people who use this stuff don't shoot much and perhaps that's a saving grace. I've seen too many barrels ruined by it in as little as 6 months.

For me, antique's need real black powder. It is user friendly, but, of course, must be cleaned properly - cold water works wonders and is recommended by H&H for their original guns, shot and rifle. Then dry, use a water displacing oil like WD40, then preserving oil if your ambient humidity is fairly high.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: .450 BPE Pyrodex loads? [Re: DarylS]
      #157377 - 25/03/10 03:56 AM


Interesting.

I know some people here carry a flask of boiling water which
at the end of the range session, pour down the barrel, washing most of the BP residue away with the boiling water being so hot it evaporates.

They then of course do the usual oil etc before a more thorough cleaning at home.

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BPEBuff
.275 member


Reged: 24/03/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Norfolk, England
Re: .450 BPE Pyrodex loads? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #157389 - 25/03/10 06:52 AM

Gents,

I'm convinced by your obvious knowledge and experience and it will be BP only. The barrels are mint and Richard Gallyon who appraised the Lawson for insurance was astounded at their fine, almost unused condition. I am intending to use Swiss 2Fg although Graeme Wright believes 3Fg is ok in .450 and larger calibres. I will post some jpgs of the Lawson shortly.

Cheers

Garry.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27506
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .450 BPE Pyrodex loads? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #157459 - 26/03/10 01:57 AM

Good move, Gary - I bow to Graeme's knowledge & experience on double guns, but I have compared 3f to 2F along with 1F GOEX in long cased .45 and .50 Sharps and that's merely GOEX, not the more powerful Swiss. I would use the 1 1/2F or 2f Swiss. 3f seems to work OK in the .45/70's short case, but rarely gives as fine accurqcy as the slower granulations.

140gr. of 3F GOEX in my .50 3-1/4" Sharps pierced primers, while 160gr. 2f GOEX didn't. The most accurate was 150gr. 1F GOEX, but I didn't have 2 barrels to regulate so could merely pick the most accurate load.

This reminds by the photo in Greener's book of a .450 BPE blown up with "fine Continental black powder.

Please don't use boiling hot water on those barrels, Gary. Cold water cleans BP fouling even more effectively and won't flash rust like hot water causes. Do use a good water displacing lube after drying it, though, like WD40, or Amsoil MP(Metal Protector - if they still make it), which was the best I've found. Can't find it now, so I use WD40, after drying and it's a good flush with a spray bottle, not merely a wipe. I buy the stuff by the gallon which is cheap - about $29.00 and that gallon lasts a year of shooting muzzleloaders at least once a week over the year.

---------------------
Daryl

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: .450 BPE Pyrodex loads? [Re: DarylS]
      #157464 - 26/03/10 03:04 AM

I strongly support the suggestion to use cold water.
Also the comments on Swiss powders.
I run Goex and Swiss in my rifles, most of them prefer the Goex, and they all seem to agree (over the chronograph) that "F for F" the Swiss 'Fs' are hotter.


Regardless of Swiss or Goex, the genuine black powder is the easiest to clean up of all powders, the only solvent needed is plain old water, and you can wash your mops and patches then re-use them if you wish...




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27506
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .450 BPE Pyrodex loads? [Re: tinker]
      #157495 - 26/03/10 11:06 AM

Good advice, Tinker.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BPEBuff
.275 member


Reged: 24/03/10
Posts: 61
Loc: Norfolk, England
Re: .450 BPE Pyrodex loads? [Re: DarylS]
      #157542 - 26/03/10 07:33 PM

Gents,

Many thanks for all your info - taken onboard! I am attending the Bisley Arms Fair on Sunday and picking up the .450 Express dies there and, hopefully, some Swiss 2f. When I get it running I will report back and sort out some jpgs for you.

Garry.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27506
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .450 BPE Pyrodex loads? [Re: BPEBuff]
      #157568 - 27/03/10 02:42 AM

Wonderful!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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