lawndart
.224 member
Reged: 09/05/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Idaho, USA
|
|
Guten Naben you all,
I am 1/4 of the way through putting together a commercial ammunition manufacturing (and selling) company.
I would like to start a short poll to see which bullets would be preffered on the business end of 6.5x54 M/S cartridges:
POLL
|
9.3x57
.450 member
Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5561
Loc: United States
|
|
Lapua 155 Mega.
Period.
--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?
|
malco
.275 member
Reged: 11/02/09
Posts: 76
Loc: montana, usa
|
|
Not sure if you have any personal experience with 1903 Mannlichers (the rifle most affiliated with this cartridge), but they can be pretty finicky in regards to ammo, not only in regards to accuracy but also when it comes to feeding out of the rotary mag. They tend to group better with the heavier, 155-160gr.-class of bullet, and generally feed RN bullets more smoothly than spitzers. Also--COL is critical to feeding with these guns--keep in mind that most if not all 1903's won't feed at all if the COL is less than 3", which means you can't seat to the cannelure on many 6.5 RNs including Hornady. You didn't list them as an option but I would also be interested in the 159 gr. RWS H- and T-Mantles.
Best of luck!
Malcolm
|
tophet1
.400 member
Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
|
|
What volumn are you looking at ? It maybe worth going custom.
http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm217/Tophet1/7mm175RNSP001.jpg"
This is a 7mm custom made 175 RNSP (Non Bonded) projectile for my 7x57 made by a home operator in his shed in Queensland, Australia. Not being faniliar with how it is done I assume he is useing some kind of home press set up. Cannulation tools are avaialable from Sinclair and he can also bond the core if needed to for higher impact velocities. He can also make other calibres. (9.3mm maybe an option later).
I'm sure there are blokes in the USA who could do the same thing in 6.5mm with custom cannular and internal components for specific use at 6.5x54MS velocities.
I'll try and post a picture tonight of the recovered projectile from test medium.
|
GG375
.333 member
Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
Loc: Brisbane
|
|
Hi tophet1
I'd be interested to talk to this guy about the possibility of some bonded 160 gn round noses for my 6.5x54 MS.
I rang Woodleigh but they don't seem to have any plans to do RN's which is a shame.
Cheers.
GG
|
pablo_mauser_66
.275 member
Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 80
Loc: Australia, Sydney
|
|
I also would prefer a 155gr lapua Mega, this is what I run in my Swede and is awesome round on Donkeys !
|
GG375
.333 member
Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
Loc: Brisbane
|
|
What shape are the Mega's pablo?
GG
|
pablo_mauser_66
.275 member
Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 80
Loc: Australia, Sydney
|
|
pretty much a round nose, not quite as rounded as hornady 160 but close.
http://www.lapua.com/index.php?id=866
|
lawndart
.224 member
Reged: 09/05/06
Posts: 35
Loc: Idaho, USA
|
|
I have a Corbin brand bullet swaging tool. It is pretty much like a very large reloading press that grew to twice its size, and became squared and true to 0.001"
I could make 160 grain round nose bullets at .264, .266 and .268 diameter (there is a lot of variation in bore sizes).
I also have a custom cannelure maker. There is an excellent hand model available from: http://www.ch4d.com/
I would go ahead and bond the jackets to the cores. With the bonding the bullet should hold together pretty well.
I had the devil's own time trying to get my original carbine to shoot anywhere near straight.
Does any one have a picture of some original cartridges? That would be a lot of help.
The Lapua nose is not quite a round nose. It looks a lot like the old Hornady .375" 270 grain "round" nosed bullet. I will order some of those up this week, along with the correct brass.
When I get the operation up and running I will ask customers to have their gunsmith slug the barrel for inside diameter. I will also offer a "try pack" so they can see how the different bullet shapes do in their particular carbine.
Hornady does make a .2675" round nosed bullet withoout a cannelure. That was designed for the Carcano. Hornady sells Carcano ammunition as a house brand through Graf & Sons, a mail order wholesale/retail outlet in Missouri. They may ship to Oz. It is certainly worth an E-mail.
Does anyone have a favorite ADI powder charge??
Thanks again, lawndart
|
Otto
.300 member
Reged: 15/09/05
Posts: 111
Loc: Arizona, USA
|
|
Glad for your last post. My 1903 carbine would only shoot 160gr bullets pointy end first. Anything lighter went sideways within 50 yards. All standard .264"bullets. Whilst musing over this phenomenon, I read in an early NRA reloader's handbook that M/S barrels were .268. So, I bought some .268" Hornadys and dropped my load 10% to start, and cut groups sizes in half at 100 yards. My carbine also has a "generous"chamber and "generous" headspace. I've been told by other 1903 shooters that this is common, especially in early guns. I custom fit the cases to eliminate all headspace, and try to minimally size the cases when reloading. It's fiddly, but the great little rifle is worth the effort.
Otto
|
Brithunter
.300 member
Reged: 17/03/10
Posts: 184
Loc: Lincolnshire, England
|
|
Alll I can say is that I must be very lucky as I have two 6.5mm Mannlichers a Mdl 1892 and a Model 1903 both of which have groove sizes of 0.268" (which appears the norm) but bore sizes of 0.256". Now I have shot the express sighted (No3 Vee) Mdl 1892 to 200 yards using some old Kynoch factory 160 Grn Loads to check the sight regulation and using handloads with a variety of bullet weights from the Speer 120 grain , Speer 140 grain and Hornady 160 Grn RN with no problems using Reloader 19.
The 1903 has a brand new Steyr made barrel and yes it's also 0.268" groove diameter. I made a brass plug guage the has 0.001" increaments from 0.255"-0.260" and both are guaged at 0.256" bores. This 1903 shows excellent promise with the 120 grain Speers.
--------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down!
|
Larry
.224 member
Reged: 17/05/10
Posts: 8
Loc: Texas
|
|
Howdy lawndart!
The best 6.5mm bullet I've ever used in several 6.5x54s is the RWS 156 grain H-Mantle hollow point. Runner up is the Hornaday 160 grain RN and the 156 gr. Norma, whether the newer Vulkan or the old standby RN. My logbooks shows groups as small as a half inch (100 yards) out of a MCA carbine. The M1903s hold at one inch, and the commemorative SBS-96 (new model) shoots less than an inch, although it refuses to feed the RWS bullets reliably. In every deer I have killed with the 6.5 M-S the results have been splat down kills. Does not get any better.
--------------------
LLS
|
pablo_mauser_66
.275 member
Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 80
Loc: Australia, Sydney
|
|
Some interesting results there fella's. I recently shot some 160 Hornady out of my Swede and groups were awful, 3-4 inchs at 100mm. This gun would consitently shoot 155gr Mega's around the 1.5. I'm about to screw one of my swede barrels onto an very early 1903 Greek action with a freshly cut 6.5 x 54 chamber. I will probably continue to use the Mega's. I may even try some of the 140gr Norma naturalis aswell.
|
radin
.275 member
Reged: 04/08/10
Posts: 99
Loc: Pennsylvania
|
|
Gents ,
Remember that the rifling twist in the 6.5 Mannlichers is faster than in the 6.5 Swede . Hence by theory should deal with the heavier projectiles better . Jim
Edited by radin (24/09/10 11:37 PM)
|
RigbyUser
.275 member
Reged: 23/11/08
Posts: 65
Loc: Victoria, Australia
|
|
Experience with my William Evans Mannlicher 6.5x54 confirms she does her best work with 160 grain bullets. Interestingly, mine shoots the Sierra 160 grain Semi-Point better than the Hornady, not by much mind, but enough. The Sierras shoot into .8MOA and the Hornady's go into 1.2MOA.
Also, when I shoot competition with the old girl, a relatively mild load of AR2209, an H4350 equivalent Aussie powder, the 139 Lapua HPBT will group intp .5MOA all day long. Do you think I win comps with that little beauty.......you know it.
On game, I've used the 160 grainers, 140 grain Sierra BT's and Nosler 120 grain Ballistic Tips. The 120 grainers providers the best results on our medium game, whilst I couldn't tell the difference between the 140 grainers and 160 grainers on bigger game. Complete penetration on all game and quite instant kills. The 160 grainer is very traditional, but those 140 grainers at 2400 fps in the carbine shoot flatter and hold their velocity better at 200 + yards.
Hard to decide best bullet for all round use, probably best to use the 140 if your pragmatic, but obviously the 160 will get the job done really well if you're a traditionalist and not allow lighter than 160 to "pollute your barrel" LoL
|
DarylS
.700 member
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27517
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
|
|
Quote:
Experience with my William Evans Mannlicher 6.5x54 confirms she does her best work with 160 grain bullets. Interestingly, mine shoots the Sierra 160 grain Semi-Point better than the Hornady, not by much mind, but enough. The Sierras shoot into .8MOA and the Hornady's go into 1.2MOA.
Rigby - when talking about 160's on game, are you referring to both as being good, or one in particular? I've steered clear of the 140 Noslers as I thought they might be a bit tough.
--------------------
Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
|
kuduae
.400 member
Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1799
Loc: middle of Germany
|
|
To find out about the "problems" of the 6.5 Mannlicher, both 6.5x53R Mannlicher and the rimless 6.5x54 M-Sch, we have to go back to the early 1890s ballistic habits. At that time European cartridge designers still thought along the lines of black powder and lead bullets.
As the early small bore bullets were rather thin-jacketed and -by today's standards- long and heavy for the caliber, and the early smokeless powders were fast burning, designers tended to use slightly undersize bullets and relied on the "slugging up" of the bullets on the sudden blow of pressure to fill the grooves. FI, this idea worked with the original 8x57 227gr .318" bullet to fill the .324" grooves, but not with lighter and stronger bullets. This lead to the confusion with .318" and .324" 8mm bullets.
The designer of the 6.5mm Mannlicher cartridges followed the same path of relying on "slugging up". On this forum you often read complains on the "outsize" groove diameter of Mannlicher-Schoenauer 6.5 mm barrels. If you take a look into the European CIP proof tables, you will find a minimum groove diameter of 6.78mm = surprise! .2669", the minimum bore diameter is 6.48mm = .255", so the minimum barrel diameters are both .03mm = .0012" wider than prescribed for the other 6.5mm cartridges like 6.5x55, 6.5x57, 6.5x68.
The maximum bullet diameter is the same for these "6.5mm" cartridges, 6.70mm = .264".
For the sake of "science" I have torn apart some original cartridges and miked the bullets:
Hornady 160gr round nose: .264"
1928 Portuguese military 158gr fmj/solid round nose: .263"
RWS, both pre- and post-WW2 make, 159gr TMR/round nose soft point: .261"!
RWS 159gr prewar H-jacketed boat-tail hollow-point .261" also.
Apparently most Mannlicher-Schoenauers did not shoot too bad with these "grossly undersized" bullets. So I dare to recommend for old M-Sch rifles:
do not try light bullets below 140gr
do not try hard bullets like Noslers or even homogenous bullets.
As M1903 Mannlicher-Schoenauer magazines, other than the post-war models, guide the cartridges at the base and at the bullet tip, feeding is most reliable with round noses seated to maximum cartridge length.
--------------------
German foresters: We like sustainability! For merely 300 years by 2013.
|
333_okh
.275 member
Reged: 24/12/05
Posts: 87
Loc: Northern California
|
|
I use 155 grain Lapua Mega bullets in my custom 6.5X55 .... It is a perfect medium to large game bullet.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....rt=1#Post101340
|
gmsemel
.224 member
Reged: 08/11/05
Posts: 29
Loc: East Haddam, CT
|
|
Mine shot 140 gr Nosler partition well enough to kill a big horn sheep 250 or so yards out.
|
DarylS
.700 member
Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27517
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
|
|
Good post, Kuduae - I have a couple hundred 156gr. blue nosed 6.5 bullets that mic. .2615". I bought them bulk in a bag, back in Ontario many years ago and never got around to trying them in my daughter's .260 Rem. I probably won't as I don't want gas leakage blasting past the bullets in the bottom of the grooves ion it's $400.00 barrel. They probably won't be up to that rifles 160gr., 2,550fps speeds, either.
Many of the old rifles have very deep rifing, compared to the norm today of .004" depth. An undersized bullet is held quite well and shoots amazingly well by the deep rifling.
My 9.3x57 is case in point, with it's .358 bore diameter and .370" groove diameter - .006" rifling. It shoots .365" bullets into sub 1" groups at 100 meters. As well, my M38 had .266" groove diameter, yet it shot sub 1" (4X scoped) with every bullet weight, from 100gr. to 160's and put all bullet weights into a single 2 1/2" group overall.
--------------------
Daryl
"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V
|
NZHunter
.224 member
Reged: 16/08/11
Posts: 31
Loc: New Zealand
|
|
I got good results with RWS 160 gr facory ammo in my 1903 MS carbine, as well as reloads using Speer 120's Sierra 140's and Nosler 125 Partitions.
|
eagle27
.400 member
Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1199
Loc: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Z...
|
|
The load we developed and used in my friends early 6.5x54MS with a 22" barrel was 39.0grs N202 behind the Hornady 129gr spire point for a crony'd 2660fps. I shot a roe buck with this load and he quite a few roe and red deer. Was an accurate load.
|
Mike_Bailey
.400 member
Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
|
|
You all probably saw the load development on my "new" mannlicher, it liked the 160 grain woodleighs best,(it does have a new Douglas barrel though which I don´t have the internal measurements for) rgds
|
farshot
.300 member
Reged: 25/01/06
Posts: 106
Loc: Alberta Canada
|
|
Good thread - since I recently picked up a nice scoped MS 1903 carbine and was amazed at the slug size. .267"
I tried the Hornady Carcano 160 gr RN - and blew a primer (even with low starting loads - methinks I was touching the lands). It scared me and I left them alone
I tried 140 gr Hornadys and Nosler partitions, and 120 gr Hornadys. I tried to stay with flat base bullets so I could set them out as far as possible.
The 160 gr .264 Hornady gave 2" groups with decent velocities. I would like to try some Norma varieties but there are none around these parts.
But the bullet that shined was the 130 gr Barnes TSX. They grouped under an inch at 100 yds at good velocities. They fed well also - no hiccups.
I figure the length and non-boattail design with the long length at the full .264" compared only to the width below only the cannelure being .264" in the Hornady 160RN is what is important in the overbore bbl.
|
Previous
Index
Next
Threaded
Edit
Reply
Quote
