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From: moss (Original Message) Sent: 3/6/2002 8:37 AM
I found this statment today while looking on the web at big bore balistics and rifles!

We may reason that we can use better constructed bullets like Swift A frame, Woodley, Barnes X or GS Bullets, but they are expensive and with some it is often very difficult to get a good grouping.

The Swift A Frame is an outstanding bullet but not easy to find and very expensive. Woodley bullets are also very expensive and do not always perform as would be expected as the lead can sheer out of the jacket. Barnes X and G S are solid copper bullets, which are hard on the barrel, can never be used in a double barrel rifle and are also difficult to group well. G S Bullets have developed low pressure solid bullets for high velocities.

I thought the underlined part was interesting!

moss

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From: Nitro Sent: 3/6/2002 12:17 PM
Moss

That's a new one to me re not being able to use solid copper bullets in double rifles.

Where did you see this comment? I wonder if it is true?

The key to using any bullet in a double rifle is getting the bullet and the handload to regulate properly eg the original 470 NE may have been regulated to place one shot from each barrel into a similar point of impact at say 70 yards with a 500 gr Kynoch solid and softpoint.

This is why Woodleigh has a good reputation in they try to duplicate the original Kynoch weights, profiles etc along with premium solid and soft point impact performance so they can be used to develop handloads in the old NE cartridges where factory loads are no longer available.

It is also interesting the comment on the failure of Woodleigh bullets ie "sheer out of the jacket". I have never heard adverse comments before. I know Woodleigh has beefed up the thickness of the jacket on some of their bullets.

Did the writer make a recommendation on what bullet he thought was good, seeing he is criticising all the bullets mentioned for various reasons including all being expensive etc which unfortunately is "run of the mill" for premium bullets?

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From: moss Sent: 3/6/2002 1:01 PM
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From: moss Sent: 3/6/2002 1:15 PM
Nitro,
I personally had never heard this before, and thought it was odd!!
Had to do some serious back tracking to find out where I had been!! he he

Thank god for HISTORY!! LOL

Anyway here's the link I started out with......
http://www.bigbores.com/SABI/Default.htm

1.click sabi rifles on the right side off page.........2.click on the bullet icon (calibers)... 3.scroll to bottom of page(note..there is some interesting reading here) click the bullet icon (ballistics).....4. scroll to bottom of page (paragraph starts with "The swift A frame")

Let me know what you think!!
moss
p.s. sent you an E-mail yesterday

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From: moss Sent: 3/6/2002 1:21 PM
you can skip step one as I had to use another link, the first one only opened up big bore page and there was an error (it only bought up half the page.)

moss

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From: Bigfive Sent: 3/6/2002 4:33 PM
Hi guys,
This note you posted is just as odd for me Moss.I can't believe that pro hunters here in Africa using doubles is only shooting softs and no solids,I think it is a bit far fetched.But in any case maybe we are the uninformed....LOL

I did'nt went into this site do you remember if it is a South-African company???I know there is rifle makers here in the lowveld that works under the name SABI RIFLES,they are in Mpumalanga Province and the town is called Nelspruit.Wonder if it is the same "informed" guys???

Cheers
B5

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From: redbeard Sent: 3/10/2002 2:18 PM
yes sounds odd to me why would a double be any diffrent than a single you have 2 shots and stronger action.......barnes does make a 250 for the 4570 moss

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From: moss Sent: 3/11/2002 11:38 AM
Big Five,
Went back and looked up the address, it is in Nelspruit!!

Redbeard, What gr. bullets do you usally shoot in the 45-70??

moss

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From: redbeard Sent: 3/12/2002 11:12 AM
300 grain hollow points,works real well on deer but we have odered a bunch of the 250 grains to try out once this shoulder gets better......seems like would give you more speed hince less drop so maybe instead of the 150 yds i get from the 300 might get 200yds

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From: moss Sent: 3/12/2002 1:32 PM
Redbeard,
Don't under estamate those heavier bullets, they don't always drop quicker then the lighter ones and always carry more energy down range!

I took this from How far does my gun shoot...308 cal 110 gr bullet traveling at 3340 fps.... approx distance in yrds..... 3000yrds

45-70 cal......405 gr. bullet traveling at 1320 fps.....approx. distance in yrds.....3333yrds

This is a ?? ............is lighter... faster... better??

moss

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From: Bigfive Sent: 3/12/2002 3:20 PM
Moss,

Tanks for the info moss,Then I know excactly were they are.They are on of the very few gunshops in South-Africa that keeps doubles on a regular basis in their shop.Don't know were they get their info from though.

B5

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From: Nitro Sent: 3/12/2002 5:05 PM
I think one point should be noted. The reference Moss refers to mentions "solid copper" bullets. Some "solids" are actually pure solid metal and not a strong thick jacket around a welded lead core (or similar). These would be described more appropriately as "full metal jacketed" bullets.

This reference appears to be saying that certain "solid" projectiles are too tough to be used in double rifles.

A welded lead core FMJ such as a Woodleigh, may have more "give" in the bullet when passing through the rifling, the lead being softer, than say a "solid" right through.

I think the brand "Monolithic solids" are true solids.

It may be the case some doubles also have thinner barrel walls and also a lesser secure lockup than a bolt action and that some adverse experiences have occurred. Certainly people have used extensively FMJ bullets ie the original Kynoch FMJs and more modern derivatives.

I have read an article on a comparison between certain brands of "solids" and premium "FMJs" including penetration tests and will re-read it and pass on the findings. I believe from memory the results were the "solids" while harder lacked equivalent momentum and may have resulted in higher pressures. Perhaps this last bit is in agreement with the comments re doubles.

Moss, sorry I haven't looked up the original reference yet that you provided. Will do that also.

Good post. This has led to an interesting discussion.

Nitro

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