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Webleyboy
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Posts: 10
Loc: Bedfordshire, UK
6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc
      #75874 - 08/04/07 05:08 AM

Hi all,

Just got my lovely Daniel Fraser Steyr 6.5 x 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur (pic below). It is fitted with a Schmidt & Bender 6x42 telescopic sight in quick detachable mounts however the receiver and barrel are fitted with the bases for a Fraser patent telescopic sight mount. Does anyone have any information on this mount?

Now that I have my dream rifle I want to reload for it and take it out stalking. To keep the MV & ME deer legal in England, I need to use bullets of between 120 and 140 grains, not unfortunately the 160 grain round nose bullet much loved by the Victorian hunters.

I like to use Vit powder in most of my rifle loads but cannot find any data for the 6.5 x 54 MS in their loading manual. Does anyone out there have any pet loads for this calibre using vit powder and lighter bullets?

Regards

Webley-boy




Edited by CptCurl (27/11/11 03:02 AM)


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Swampfox
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Webleyboy]
      #75967 - 09/04/07 04:27 AM

Hi Webleyboy,
i have some datas from the DEVA institut Book for the 6,5x54M.-Sch.
So you can bee sure that the source is safe.
All loads are MAXIMUM LOADS !! Its recommended to start 5% less.
1.Load
Bullet:KS from RWS 127gn
Powder:N140 38,0 gn
Primer CCI BR 2
Case:RWS
OAL:70,5 mm
Speed:800 V3 m/s

2. Load
Bullet:Nosler Partition 140 gn
Powder: N 140 36,0 gn
Primer: CCI BR 2
Case:RWS
OAL:74,0 mm
Speed:755 V3 m/s

I have some other reloading datas for this caliber,but with other powder like R903 and with more heavy bullets.
If you would have them,please send a message.
Regards,
Swampfox

--------------------
" As long as there's lead in the air there's hope".


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Webleyboy
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Reged: 14/01/07
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Loc: Bedfordshire, UK
Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Swampfox]
      #75989 - 09/04/07 07:41 AM

Swampfox,

I have calculated the Muzzle Energy with the No. 2 load to be 1908 ft/lbs which looks to be ideal for me. When I get the die set, brass etc I will load some up and let you know what they chronograph at.

Many thanks for taking the time and trouble.

Kindest regards

Webley-boy


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Swampfox
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Webleyboy]
      #75990 - 09/04/07 08:45 AM

Webleyboy,
no problem,the informations has been done in a short time,all reloadingbooks lives near the computer
Please let me know the result.
BtW,very nice rifle.Is it a GK stamped with Steyer Daimler Puch ??
Regards,
Swampfox

--------------------
" As long as there's lead in the air there's hope".


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tinker
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Webleyboy]
      #75991 - 09/04/07 08:47 AM

SwampFox-

Thanks for posting that load data.
Will you also please post load data for 160gr jacketed bullets?
I have a 6.5x53R Jeffery, I want to run the Hornady bullet and powders that are available here in the USA



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Swampfox
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: tinker]
      #76036 - 10/04/07 02:13 AM

Tinker,
never had heard about a caliber called 6,5x53R jeffery,or do you mean the manufactur of the rifle Jefferey ?
i have found datas at Reloadersnest.com and in Cartridges of the world page 329 10thedition.
First from reloaders nest:
The 6,5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer cartridge is a civil version of an old military round. Greece decided in 1903 to use this rimless version of the rimmed 6,5x53R Mannlicher round, used since 1892 with the armies of Netherlands and Romania. The round was used in a bolt-action rifle, constructed by Ritter von Mannlicher, called "Mod. 1903".

The civil version of this rifle was the "Mannlicher-Schoenauer GK", which was produced until the 1970s by Steyr-Daimler-Puch AG in Austria. The Mannlicher Schoenauer GK and the famous Mannlicher-Schoenauer GK carbine with it's 46 cm (18") barrel, often used by hunters in the Alpen mountains in southern Germany (Bavaria) and Austria, were the only civil rifles chambered for the 6,5x54 M.-Sch.

The small but effective round was used by the european hunters even for big game like the european red deer. Karamojo Bell used a 6,5x54 carbine for brain shots on hundrets of elephants.

The traditional bullet for the 6,5 is the 10,3g (160 gr.) round nose soft point. Effective range is approx 160 m with this bullet. All 6,5mm/.264" bullets could be used.

Load 8720 in caliber 6.5mm Mannlicher Schoenauer
LoadID 8720
Bullet Hornady
BulletWeight 160 grs
Powder IMR 4350
PowderWeight 40 grs
Primer CCI
Brass Make Norma
Barrel Length 18 (inches)
C.O.L 3 (inches)
Velocity 2200 fps
Group 1 (inches by 3 shot at 100 yds)
Submitted Date 12/20/2003 10:55:00 AM
Submitted By Hugh Clark
Gun Info
Comment 1" group@ 100 yd. No sign of excessive pressure.

Energy 1716 ft-lbs
TKO 13.28
OGW 409 lbs
IPSC PF 352

The second i have found is allso in 160gn an from the reloadersnest page:
Load 8286 in caliber 6.5mm Mannlicher Schoenauer
LoadID 8286
Bullet Hornady RN
BulletWeight 160 grs
Powder Hodgdon H4831SC
PowderWeight 44.5 grs
Primer Winchester LR
Brass Make Norma
Barrel Length 18 (inches)
C.O.L 3.1 (inches)
Velocity 2340 fps
Group (inches by 3 shot at 100 yds)
Submitted Date 9/5/2003 5:07:00 AM
Submitted By Steve
Gun Info
Comment No press. signs in my MS carbine

Energy 1941 ft-lbs
TKO 14.12
OGW 492 lbs
IPSC PF 374.4

and the third loading data is from the book cartridges of the world:
6.5x53Rmm Mannlicher
bullet:160 gn SP
powder:IMR 3031
Gn:34
velocity 2250
energy 1810
source NA

I hope i was able to help,
Regards,
Swampfox

--------------------
" As long as there's lead in the air there's hope".


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tinker
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Swampfox]
      #76075 - 10/04/07 08:29 AM

SwampFox-

Yes, I mean to say that I have a WJ Jeffery rifle chambered in 6.5x53 Mannlicher.

Thank you very much for posting these loads.



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Collath_500BPE
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Swampfox]
      #76102 - 10/04/07 06:44 PM

Hello Swampfox,
there are two types of Mannlicher Schönauer rifles.The above mentioned rifle is the model NO (normal) and the so called GK (mit schrägem Kammergriff =inclinated bolt)
Here are some M.Sch.in GK and the first rifle is model NO.
regards Johann

Edited by CptCurl (27/11/11 03:03 AM)


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Swampfox
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #76170 - 11/04/07 04:57 AM

Johann,
thanks for posting the pictures and the information about the different models.
You must be a lucky man to have four of this nice rifles.
A hunting friend of mine has a GK in 5,6x57 in a nearly perfect condition.A heritage from his grandpa. The rifle is excellent made( the steelmagazin is a dream), and it shoots 12mm on 100mtr with 4 shots.
From time to time i reload his ammunition,but its a little bit tricky because off the thickness of the cases.
Good hunting with this beautys.
Swampfox

--------------------
" As long as there's lead in the air there's hope".


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BlueZulu
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Reged: 08/01/08
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Loc: United Kingdom
Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Swampfox]
      #124113 - 15/01/09 06:31 AM

I used the loads posted by Swampfox:
6.5x54 Mannlicher Schoenauer
140gr Hornady Interlock
36gr VV N14O (I reduced it by 5% so used 34.2gr)

Accuracy whas brilliant, and no signs of pressure put 3 shots into a inch at 50m.

By chance I found some Nosler 120gr Ballistic Tip, I no that the norm is they dont fair well in the mannlicher schoenauers but you never no!
Does any one have a load using VV N140.
Going to buy some Lapua 155 gr bullets and will post the results they look ideal for the MS and may be able to get the perfomance up to meet England draconian deer laws.


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: BlueZulu]
      #124165 - 15/01/09 07:16 PM

BlueZulu, if you get the chance to try the Woodleigh 160 grainers please let me know how you get on.
best, Mike


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BlueZulu
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #124169 - 15/01/09 10:00 PM

Mike Im going to try them, but what disapoints me about them well certainly the ones I have looked at on the net is they dont follow the conventional bullet shape that Woodleigh is renowned for manufacturing (i.e Old school Kynoch shapes) and therefor the 160gr bullet does not have a nice round nose that the Mannlicher needs for easy chambering, but I will certainly try them.

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: BlueZulu]
      #124170 - 15/01/09 10:31 PM

OK, please let me know how you get on especially chambering wise from the
rotary mag, powders wise etc, cheers in advance, Mike


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Clark
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Reged: 25/11/08
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Loc: Sweden
Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #124178 - 15/01/09 11:38 PM

Quote:

Hello Swampfox,
there are two types of Mannlicher Schönauer rifles.The above mentioned rifle is the model NO (normal) and the so called GK (mit schrägem Kammergriff =inclinated bolt)

Here are some M.Sch.in GK and the first rifle is model NO.
regards Johann




Thanks for the information! I have wondered about the difference between a GK and a NO, and now I know. I own a model NO carbine in .30-06, but I would like to know how it differs from a normal model 1950? It looks exactly the same as a regular 1950. Was it made at a later date when the GK had been introduced? Is their a way to see the manufacturing date?

Kind regards,
Lars


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Collath_500BPE
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Clark]
      #124655 - 21/01/09 01:05 AM

Hi Clark,
on the left side of the receiver you can find the proof house stampings concerning the year of approval.
regards Johann - Austria


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Clark
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #124683 - 21/01/09 05:44 AM

Thanks! I think it says 64, but it is quite unclear but 64 makes sense. So the NO was a later model for the European market with the more classic look of the 1950/1903 instead of the newer model GK with its swept back bolt handle?

/C


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Otto
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Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Clark]
      #124766 - 22/01/09 01:15 AM

My 6.5X54 is an early 1903 and initial shooting was a significant disappointment with several 160gr Hornadys going thru the target sideways. This with 34 gr of 3031 and Norma cases. My efforts to research my problems discovered in the old NRA reloading manual that bore diameter for 6.5X54 MS is listed therein as .268", not .264". This in a 1950s vintage publication. Further , I found the currently available .264 160gr Hornadys are only .264" below the cannelure. This combination in my barrel is totally unusable. Perhaps Woodleighs would be OK. However, I ordered the .268" 160gr Hornady made for the Carcano and first found them to have a much longer section of bullet at full diameter. Shooting these bullets solved all previous issues with iron sight 100 yard groups consistently under 2". One caveat, be sure to reduce any load developed with .264" bullets at least 15% and work up your load from there. Full diameter bullets with long bearing surface operate at higher pressures than bullets barely touching the rifling!

Otto


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Carpetsahib
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Swampfox]
      #191553 - 10/10/11 12:10 PM

Quote:

Johann,
thanks for posting the pictures and the information about the different models.
You must be a lucky man to have four of this nice rifles.
A hunting friend of mine has a GK in 5,6x57 in a nearly perfect condition.A heritage from his grandpa. The rifle is excellent made( the steelmagazin is a dream), and it shoots 12mm on 100mtr with 4 shots.
From time to time i reload his ammunition,but its a little bit tricky because off the thickness of the cases.
Good hunting with this beautys.
Swampfox


Very interesting. Is this the 5.6x57 RWS cartridge? Am I correct in assuming this was done by the Steyr factory?

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #191558 - 10/10/11 05:18 PM

In a review of the Mannlicher I recently had built the chap who did the load development wrote the following if it is of any help, best, Mike (all usual caveats apply)

Load Development (by Rocky Hays)

The customer requested hand loads using Woodleigh 160 grain Weldcore and Barnes 130 grain TSX bullets. When I do load development, I blueprint each case, uniform the primer pocket and flash hole, re-size and trim to length. I take portable loading equipment to the range, so I can load one round and shoot it. That way, the barrel is always cold when fired. In addition, if I have an unacceptable load, I don't have others like it. I shoot from a bench rest using a Lead Sled and try to hold the gun the same way for each shot. I record weather data and chronograph every shot. The idea is to remove all possible human and weather-induced variables.

I found one line of load data for IMR 4350 powder in an old reloading manual to use as a starting point. 36.8 grains was supposed to yield 2100 feet per second (fps) for the 140 grain bullet and 34.0 grains was supposed to yield 1900 fps for the 160 grain bullet.

The first load tried in the new rifle used 36 grains of Hodgdon 4350 powder and a 130 grain Barnes TSX bullet. Winchester primers and new Norma brass were used for all loads. The chronographed velocity was 2636 fps 10' from the muzzle. The fired primer showed signs of slight cratering, so experimenting with this load was discontinued.

The second load I tried was 34 grains of Hodgdon 4350 with a 156 grain Norma bullet. This chronographed at 2555 fps and showed the same slight primer cratering. Again, testing was stopped. I concluded that the old load data was essentially useless with modern bullets and powders in this rifle.

I reduced the minimum load to 32 grains of H4350 and fired 30 test rounds. I switched to Accurate 4350, which lowered the muzzle velocity by about 200 fps. The average 100 yard group size was 2-1/2" with either 4350 powder, which I regarded as unsatisfactory for this rifle.

I then tried IMR 3031 powder. This yielded an appropriate muzzle velocity of 2124 fps with the 156 grain Norma bullet and a 1-5/16" group size. Better accuracy, but still not what I was looking for.

I moved on to IMR 4895 powder. 28.8 grains yielded a 1", five shot group. IMR 4895 clearly agreed with this rifle. It should be noted that the maximum load with IMR 4895, according to the reloading manual, is 34 grains. I exceeded that muzzle velocity by 100 fps with 30 grains of powder.

The following trip to the range was to develop a hunting load using IMR 4895 powder. I used Woodleigh Weldcore 160 grain bullets and Winchester WLR primers. The results were as follows:

powder (gr) velocity (fps) avg. 100 yd. group std. deviation

28.6 2043 1-1/16" 217

28.8 2110 1" 107

29 2181 3/4" 69

29.2 2219 3/4" 104

29.4 2251 1" 207

29.6 2278 1-1/8" 125

29.8 2302 1" 114

30 2323 1-1/4" 181

The next range day was devoted to the Barnes 130 grain TSX bullet, with IMR 4895 and Winchester WLR primers:

powder (gr) velocity (fps) avg. 100 yd. group std. deviation

29.8 2094 fps 1-3/4" 69

30 2145 1-3/4" 71

30.2 2186 1-1/2" 57

30.4 2194 15/16" 62

30.6 2115 15/16" 53

30.8 2232 5/8" 14

31 2260 3/4" 64

31.2 2289 1-1/2" 87

31.4 2330 2-3/4" 106

It became obvious that pushing the 130 grain bullet much over 2260 fps in this barrel degraded the accuracy, perhaps due to the 1:8" twist. By the end of the third day at the range, I had fired nearly 250 rounds and had developed sufficient loading data for each of the requested bullets. The targets indicated I could switch between the 130 grain and 160 grain bullets without re-adjusting the scope.

Next, I loaded more of the selected loads with 130 and 160 grain bullets and shot both bullet weights at the same target to form a composite group. The 130 grain bullets produced a group that was centered 7/8" high and right from the bull's eye. The 160 grain group was centered 9/16" low and left from the bull's eye, which means that there was only about 1-1/2" between the centers of impact of the two bullet weights. Compared to the size of a big game animal, this is negligible


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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #191711 - 12/10/11 09:08 PM

There is an article on the 6,5x54 M. Sch. in the latest edition of Rifle, (Sept, 2011, No 258). It states that post-war Mannlicher's normally have .264" bores whereas "older" ones ranged from .266-269". Mine is a Model 1903, proofed in 1928. I slugged my barrel and here's the results:

.2564 .2565 .2564 across three different locations on the lands
.2681 .2680 .2678 “ grooves

I've since brought a box of Hornady .268" Carcano bullets which actually measure slightly less in diameter than .268". As suggested, I'll be using a light starting load and measuring base expansion compared with factory loads and also using a Chrony to judge pressures. This rifle does not develop expected velocities with the normal .264" bullet, though the Hornady accuracy is much better (2" or so @ 100 yards), than the RWS one which is undersize !

I had a Model 1950 Mannlicher and the chief difference between it and the latter M.1952 and other post-war guns was that it had no safety beyond the original bolt wing-safety. Later models had side safeties or sometimes tang safeties. Bullet shapes other than round nose will work in some early Mannlichers such as mine, a lot seems to depend on the individual rifle and it's feed ramp and perhaps also the magazine alignment. I've had good results with Nosler 140 grains, and even 129 grain Hornady spire-points. This in a long-throated carbine.


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Brithunter
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #192977 - 03/11/11 10:44 PM

Hi All,

Weblyboy PM sent about dies.

As for the oversize barrels ..................... don't worry about them just use normal 6.5mm bullets. Steyr cut the barrels with 0.268" (0.008" deep) diameter grooves. I have two 6.5mm Steyrs a Mdl 1892 finished and retailed by Rigby and a project M9103 Schoenauer which the barrel was poorly re-lined and the chamber so out of shape it wrecked cases. Luckily for me Ron Wharton found a new in the wrap Shoenauer factory chambered barrel which Lewis Potter fitted for me and guess what as best I can measure using digital calipers the grooves at the muzzle are 0.268" just the same as those on the Mdl 1892 yet both shoot normal bullet just fine. The Schonauer in a brief test shot the Speer 120 grain bullets just fine too.

I wonder who decreed that rifling grooves had to be only 0.004" deep?

--------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down!


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DarylS
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Brithunter]
      #192994 - 04/11/11 05:18 AM

No one decreed that rifling depth HAD to be .004" deep. That depth is/was the norm for US military rifles for many years and rifle makers found they shot well.

Indeed, the most accurate rifles in the world, mostly have .004" depth rifling. It doesn't have to be that deep.

My 9.3x57 has .0065" rifling (per side) (.370" groove depth) and it shoots .366", 293gr. bullets into cloverleafs at 100 meters - 3 shots touching, every time(3 groups in a row), that's 9 shots into less than 1/2" on centres. Of course, being an old worn-out, $275.00, 1929 Husky M94.M96 is probably why.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Brithunter
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: DarylS]
      #193005 - 04/11/11 09:01 AM

Daryl,

As you probably recall we discusses the 9.3x57 at some length on Gunboards as I also have a Husqvarna 46 in 9x3.57 which also has a groove depth of 0.370". I have not been able to cloverleaf with mine but then again I have not altered the bedding at all. As I recall you did to yours. Ther ehave been several articles published about how to get barrels that are oversize to shoot and the 6.5mm comes in for a lot of bashing about it. These people seem to think that every barrel should be rifled at 0.004" depth and in fact this has never been the case. Remington used to only cut about 0.0015" depth grooves on their paper patched barrels or so I recall reading somewhere. My own Husqvarna 46 is on 1935 vintage.

--------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down!


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DarylS
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Re: 6.5 X 54 Mannlicher Shoenaur Loads etc [Re: Brithunter]
      #193046 - 05/11/11 03:03 AM

All my US made match rifle barrels have had .004" rifling depth. Except in .172 calibre where it's .002".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (05/11/11 07:03 AM)


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