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ChrisCoade
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Reged: 11/04/23
Posts: 6
Loc: Stow-on-the-Wold, England
Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: 85lc]
      #376762 - 17/05/23 03:41 AM

Good news that 85lc has made contact with the Friedkin Group for access to the remaining Jeffery records. I have now identified 25 Leonard-made N.E. Double Rifles with the most numerous being Twelve .450/.400 N.E. and then Four .475 No.2 and only One in .600 N.E.
Chris


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: ChrisCoade]
      #376775 - 17/05/23 06:59 PM

Well done Gentlemen.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Rodd
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Reged: 03/05/11
Posts: 5
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: 85lc]
      #378183 - 31/07/23 01:42 AM

Jeffery 600 NE

Gentlemen, I have on hand a few more pictures and stories for your viewing pleasure about Jeffery double rifles and especially that December 1902 delivered 600 NE Jeffery no.12431 with 28 inch barrels made by Saunders for Jeffery, photographed with Hans Schomburgk by Lemming in 1907.

This 6th build 600 NE is the only one by any maker to have been proofed for 120 Grain Cordite, this special load recorded in the Jeffery ledger, thus making it effectively the unique and most powerful double rifle of the professional elephant hunting era.

Enjoyed by 5 owners and 8 users between 1902 to date, it is still in top condition, regularly serviced, its action tight as a bank vault and is still happily used for its intended purpose, dangerous big game hunting.

Its first owner was Karl Larsen shot with it at least 52 elephants (some report several hundreds), 6 rhinos, and in an incredible shooting feat, a pride of 7 lions with 9 shots in 2 minutes. The lion hide trophies and the story of that charge was used in the Jeffery catalogue for several decades, his 600 NE recognizable on his right side. Larsen’s endorsement about Jeffery rifle quality was also used by Jeffery for decades in their catalogues. Following a difficult hunting season, he sold that Jeffery to Schomburgk in 1907, in exchange for cash and a .400 double rifle of unknown make. A man of big build, he reordered from Jeffery another 600 NE no.22368 for 75.0 Guinea and 450-400 no.22369 double rifle for 70.0 Guinea, both made by Leonard with 28 inch barrels and delivered June 1913. Interestingly, the Jeffery ledger recorded a 1902 sales price of 50.0 Guinea for 600NE no.12431.

Its second owner was Hans Schomburgk, the most celebrated German Africa explorer until his death in 1967, who shot 63 elephants, several buffalos, rhinos and other game with it before the first World War. His hunting stories with that Jeffery were extensively recorded and pictured in over 45 books, magazines and even seen in the first ever documentary about Africa bush life, filmed prior to the first World War.
That Jeffery was also used occasionally for elephant hunting by Schomburgk's hunting partner, Lammond Hemming during Schomburgk's frequent travels to Europe.

Its third but first recorded owner in the Jeffery ledger, was the French Senator Henri Chamault, who purchased the Jeffery in the London store around 1924 for 100.0 Guinea and hunted frequently elephants with it in his plantation in Cameroun.

Its fourth owner was the American tycoon F.P. Williamson. He purchased that 600 NE no.12431 directly from the Jeffery store in London in 1952 for 150.0 Guineas, he is the last Jeffery ledger recorded owner. He used it in Africa with Kerr & Downey safari and wrote about his hunting experience with a 600 in American Rifleman 1956. His name is still embossed on the lid of the original Jeffery gun case, fantastique original airline stickers still present, at a time unthinkable nowadays when you could travel safely with your gun as hand carried luggage inside airline cabins.

The Jeffery was purchased from the Williamson estate and retuned successfully the following year to the Okawongo Delta for elephant and buffalo hunting the traditional way. 3 weeks of mostly tracking on foot carrying the 16lbs gun from sunrise to dawn, or until daily supply water runs out, charged several times and sleeping under tents. Grandiose, the Jeffery really enjoyed it…

Despite its colourful, much travelled, often hair-raising and life-saving adventures of the past 121 years, more hunting trips are in the planning for Jeffery no.12431 which is enjoying meanwhile a much deserved and cherished life in company of other special African calibre British double rifles.





























Waidmannsheil, safe and enjoyable hunting to all


Edited to archive images.

Edited by NitroX (02/08/23 04:28 AM)


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bwanabobftw
.375 member


Reged: 29/12/04
Posts: 675
Loc: Texas
Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: Rodd]
      #378203 - 31/07/23 06:58 AM

What a beautiful rifle !!!!!!! Thank you so much for sharing the rifle and the excellent documentation.

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85lc
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Reged: 19/01/18
Posts: 1031
Loc: Georgia, USA
Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #378207 - 31/07/23 08:06 AM

Rodd,

Thank you for the very informative post with great pictures.

--------------------
RB


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grandveneur
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: 85lc]
      #378214 - 31/07/23 10:09 PM

Interesting post.

I knew one part from the Jeffery catalogue season 1912-13 and from a paper from Harald Wolf from the Magazine HATARI TIMES N°6.

As owner of a DR of this caliber, a brief note on the cartridges caliber 600 Nitro Express used at the time. That this DR was regulated by Jeffery with 120gr Cordite might be, but I am not so sure if this load was really used.

If you look at the illustration of the cartridge in Jeffery's catalogue, you can see on the picture that the load has been corrected from 120gr Cordite to 100gr Cordite. This would also be more in line with the trend at Jeffery, a company that has always been wary of overpressure with cartridges in tropical areas. Taylor also only mentions in his famous book the classic 110gr and 100gr loads for this cartridge, and nowadays Kynoch also only loads the cartridges 600 Nitro Express with a 110gr Cordite-equivalent load.

I think that at that time the 100gr load was used above all for hunting in Africa and India, a load which, according to Taylor, makes no difference to the stronger 110gr load when hunting. From personal experience I can confirm that a 100gr Cordite-equivalent load is also more comfortable to shoot.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39881
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: Rodd]
      #378261 - 02/08/23 04:31 AM

Quote:

Jeffery 600 NE

Gentlemen, I have on hand a few more pictures and stories for your viewing pleasure about Jeffery double rifles and especially that December 1902 delivered 600 NE Jeffery no.12431 with 28 inch barrels made by Saunders for Jeffery, photographed with Hans Schomburgk by Lemming in 1907.

Snipped.





Images added to archive. Rodd, Thanks for posting.

Also opening post. Thanks Matt.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (02/08/23 03:53 PM)


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: NitroX]
      #378269 - 02/08/23 09:20 AM

Marvellous stuff, Rodd!
Excellent post, on one of the Hunting Field's all-time great rifles.

Thanks for posting

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4199
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: Marrakai]
      #378299 - 03/08/23 05:48 AM

And I hope she has a lot more adventures as well!
Well done Rod, hope to hear of them in the future here.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: Rodd]
      #378319 - 03/08/23 09:02 PM

Quote:

Jeffery 600 NE

Gentlemen, I have on hand a few more pictures and stories for your viewing pleasure about Jeffery double rifles and especially that December 1902 delivered 600 NE Jeffery no.12431 with 28 inch barrels made by Saunders for Jeffery, photographed with Hans Schomburgk by Lemming in 1907.

This 6th build 600 NE is the only one by any maker to have been proofed for 120 Grain Cordite, this special load recorded in the Jeffery ledger, thus making it effectively the unique and most powerful double rifle of the professional elephant hunting era.

Enjoyed by 5 owners and 8 users between 1902 to date, it is still in top condition, regularly serviced, its action tight as a bank vault and is still happily used for its intended purpose, dangerous big game hunting.

Its first owner was Karl Larsen shot with it at least 52 elephants (some report several hundreds), 6 rhinos, and in an incredible shooting feat, a pride of 7 lions with 9 shots in 2 minutes. The lion hide trophies and the story of that charge was used in the Jeffery catalogue for several decades, his 600 NE recognizable on his right side. Larsen’s endorsement about Jeffery rifle quality was also used by Jeffery for decades in their catalogues. Following a difficult hunting season, he sold that Jeffery to Schomburgk in 1907, in exchange for cash and a .400 double rifle of unknown make. A man of big build, he reordered from Jeffery another 600 NE no.22368 for 75.0 Guinea and 450-400 no.22369 double rifle for 70.0 Guinea, both made by Leonard with 28 inch barrels and delivered June 1913. Interestingly, the Jeffery ledger recorded a 1902 sales price of 50.0 Guinea for 600NE no.12431.

Its second owner was Hans Schomburgk, the most celebrated German Africa explorer until his death in 1967, who shot 63 elephants, several buffalos, rhinos and other game with it before the first World War. His hunting stories with that Jeffery were extensively recorded and pictured in over 45 books, magazines and even seen in the first ever documentary about Africa bush life, filmed prior to the first World War.
That Jeffery was also used occasionally for elephant hunting by Schomburgk's hunting partner, Lammond Hemming during Schomburgk's frequent travels to Europe.

Its third but first recorded owner in the Jeffery ledger, was the French Senator Henri Chamault, who purchased the Jeffery in the London store around 1924 for 100.0 Guinea and hunted frequently elephants with it in his plantation in Cameroun.

Its fourth owner was the American tycoon F.P. Williamson. He purchased that 600 NE no.12431 directly from the Jeffery store in London in 1952 for 150.0 Guineas, he is the last Jeffery ledger recorded owner. He used it in Africa with Kerr & Downey safari and wrote about his hunting experience with a 600 in American Rifleman 1956. His name is still embossed on the lid of the original Jeffery gun case, fantastique original airline stickers still present, at a time unthinkable nowadays when you could travel safely with your gun as hand carried luggage inside airline cabins.

The Jeffery was purchased from the Williamson estate and retuned successfully the following year to the Okawongo Delta for elephant and buffalo hunting the traditional way. 3 weeks of mostly tracking on foot carrying the 16lbs gun from sunrise to dawn, or until daily supply water runs out, charged several times and sleeping under tents. Grandiose, the Jeffery really enjoyed it…

Despite its colourful, much travelled, often hair-raising and life-saving adventures of the past 121 years, more hunting trips are in the planning for Jeffery no.12431 which is enjoying meanwhile a much deserved and cherished life in company of other special African calibre British double rifles.






Wonderful to be able to tell the story of such a rifle, more or less from its beginning to the current day.

Also such a prestigious and colourful history.

And also instead of it gathering dust in a collection, carried afield in the hunting lands of its youth. Wunderbar. So well done.

I hope you have more photos to share.

One negative note. I've a 13 1/4 lb Jeffery DR, my resultant pleasant to shoot .450 No.2 NE. I've carried it fine for many miles, but it's a weight to first pick up. Now a 16 lb rifle is even more a hefty lump of steel. I've shot a .600 several times. Manageable. But I shot only one round at a time. And wisely it had hammers, so one can cock one barrel at a time.

Shooting the nine rounds at seven lions in two minutes,the strong biceps and shoulders to carry it, might be needed for the serial compounding recoil effect. The 16 lbs should make it "milder".

Impressive story and rifle.

A real rifle, for the real man!

I want a .600 now



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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 734
Loc: West UK
Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: NitroX]
      #378331 - 04/08/23 08:26 AM

A very interesting thread, many thanks for the posts

My own limited experience was when I stayed with Cal Pappas for the Alsaka DR shoot some years ago

Shooting his .600 NE (in his garden/back yard) was different!

Recoil (see an earlier response) was more than "stout" it was BRUTAL even with a recoil pad
(I am only 160lbs and skinny and OLD!!) but I would not have missed it for the world

The welcome and friendliness from all the guys there will stay with me forever

TH


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: TH44]
      #378332 - 04/08/23 10:25 AM

"This 6th build 600 NE is the only one by any maker to have been proofed for 120 Grain Cordite, this special load recorded in the Jeffery ledger, thus making it effectively the unique and most powerful double rifle of the professional elephant hunting era."

I'm not sure this is correct.
I've seen one Jeffery 600 which is purported to be the very first one made and it has the 120/900 proofs on the flats but 100/900 on the barrels.
85lc is kindly adding the rifle to his inquiry to his Fiedkin contact so we can see what's what with that particular rifle.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: Huvius]
      #378333 - 04/08/23 03:07 PM

It is above all about the history of this double rifle.

In all probability no one fired ammunition loaded with 120gr of Cordite. There was no such ammunition.

On the same page of the catalog Jeffery write that this weapon uses cartridges loaded with 100gr of Cordite.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: grandveneur]
      #378334 - 04/08/23 08:03 PM

I wonder how regulation goes with 120,110, 100grs cordite ammunition changes?

If regulated for the 120 grs cordite,but only can source 100 grs cordite?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (04/08/23 08:04 PM)


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grandveneur
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: NitroX]
      #378340 - 04/08/23 09:10 PM

I think it was just the proof test.

These weapons were imho regulated with the 100gr load of Cordite. Jeffery has always been afraid of overpressure of cartridges in tropical areas.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: grandveneur]
      #378344 - 04/08/23 09:43 PM

From the ".577vs .600" thread:

***

David shooting his .600 NE.










http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=177019&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: NitroX]
      #378345 - 04/08/23 09:45 PM





David is a light slim guy. However he does shoot the rifle well and hits the target. The recoil also moves him more than a bit!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (06/08/23 02:52 AM)


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Huvius
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Reged: 04/11/07
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: grandveneur]
      #378362 - 05/08/23 03:45 AM

Quote:

I think it was just the proof test.

These weapons were imho regulated with the 100gr load of Cordite. Jeffery has always been afraid of overpressure of cartridges in tropical areas.




That’s how I understand it as well.
120gr for proof and 100gr for regulation.

This, I imagine, is the early method and iirc, the later 600s had a proof and regulation charge of 100gr.
Perhaps only the the first few had a proof at 120grs.

Cal’s book should clear this up but I don’t have a copy.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Rodd
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Re: A Jeffery Double in 600 NE [Re: Huvius]
      #378393 - 06/08/23 01:51 AM

Thank you Huvius for your initiative about the Jeffery records: previous 600 NE information came mostly from rare Jeffery ledger pages, some British gun books and the late Cal Pappas book on the subject. His Jeffery chapter seems quite complete, with full word by word transcription of all 600 NE DR and SS recorded in the Jeffery ledger between 1900 to 1929 - yet only one 120 grains service charge Jeffery is recorded.

Regarding that 120 Grains Cordite load which seems to be quite unsettling to some, British proof house rules are very strict and regulated since 1637 but can be confusing. Once a gun has passed proof, in addition to caliber, only maximum service load - which is also the regulation load - are stamped on the barrel flats above each barrel. Annexed a 360 DR barrel flat picture and a simplified explanation of Gun Proof and Gun Marks in England, both under the Rules of 1896 and those of 1904, in practice until after the 1920’s (Gun Digest 1977), whereas “If proofed for nitro loads, they were fired with Cordite proof cartridges generating at least 30% excess stress, and the maximum service load was stamped”.

The misconception that the 120 grains service load is actually the proof charge is again battered by simple mathematics. Following Proof Rules, if 30% charge was added for proof to the lowest 100 Grain service load, what resulting charge should be stamped on the barrels flats ?
In the case of the well-known 577 NE full charge, often also called and stamped 577-100-750, which number correspond to what ?

And Jeffery did use for several years the cartridge description 600 – 120 – 900. The annexed picture is from an original Jeffery catalogue with glued-in 1927 price list. Jeffery was also what is nowadays described as a good marketing man and this Jeffery is the heaviest produced and the first of only 2 with 28 inch barrels. Marketing gimmick to claim more speed and power from that combination ?

To explain in a simple manner the 1900 period Proof Rules, on hand 4 DR barrel flats in picture : that 1902 120 grs 600 under 1896 Rules, a 1913 577 NE (577-100-750) with Birmingham proof after 1904, a 1911 476 NE and a 1912 470 NE, both with London Proof after 1904.

Factually there is a good chance that 100, 110 or even 120 grains cordite does not make any big difference with a 600 under hunting conditions, even head-on charges.

Did Karamanjo Bell not kill 1000 elephants with his 7x57 ? Shooting red deer stags in rut in Europe with the small 5.6x50R barrel of my Bergstützen also cleanly bags game to 150 yards with puny 60 grains bullets. But with today’s rage about Magnum calibers and long distance shooting, is it still true that a small bullet of proper construction in the right place is more effective than a big bullet missing it ? So what is all the fuss about a few extra grains of Cordite ?

What ammunition did Larsen hand over to Schomburgk when he sold this Jeffery ? Which load did the other owners used ? Except for Williamson who wrote about his solid bullets not reaching the brain of an elephant, riveting or braking up due to a post-war change in solid bullet construction (American Rifleman 1956) we know nothing about the powder charge used.

But honestly, who cares ? They all hunted the Big Five in very remote areas, exposed to bush illnesses, ambush by natives, snakes and such plus no helicopter rescue possible. Yet they all survived the many dangerous encounters with interesting stories to tell and trophies to show, somehow it must have worked for all of them in one way or another ?

The book “The history and development of small arms ammunition” is the only one I have seen to date which pictures a probable 120 Grain loaded Jeffery 600 NE cartridge box. Let’s not forget that Jeffery was also a cartridge inventor who chose to release the 600 to the trade, not just a user of the 600. He had certainly direct access to the development department of Kynoch, Eley and others at that time.

Sharing pictures of vintage hunting guns, experiences and adventures of past in oftentimes unexplored and uncharted territory, with the help of one of the guns unmistakably pictured and documented over decades by its different owners was the idea.

Is it safe to assume that none of us were first hand involved with the 600 development around 1900 ? Armchair quarter-backing any story based solely on printed documentation of yore not necessarily reliable feels more like a need to split hairs in 4, or maybe measuring d....

I don't have that need, even when I was itching to try out the Jeffery initially.

To answer another question in the post, Its first trip to the range was with recent manufactured Kynoch 600 NE with soft and solid Woodleigh bullets, and whatever powder charge Kynoch was loading commercially.

Rear trigger first, it was shooting sufficiently well for minute of elephant brain angle.

Woodleigh solids did on average group differently than softs: Solids would have needed more power to come closer. Was it the result of a difference in load between present day factory Kynoch and this Jeffery 120 regulation, or just a day off at the range for me ?

Increasing powder charge, with speed just above 2000 fps by handloading solids did tweak more than an inch in precision and allowed to bring solids and softs in the same place and closer together. Better grouping seemed more recoil than speed sensitive.

Hope to have brought some more clarity in the debate.

https://imgur.com/u8mmRZO
https://imgur.com/PGeMnh0
https://imgur.com/nLsqvrq
https://imgur.com/PFPCz9c
https://imgur.com/N0YEP2c
https://imgur.com/HHBZTRj
https://imgur.com/HXUK15B


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