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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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Rolland
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Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 281
Loc: Camp Verde, AZ
8mm Carcano
      #341540 - 31/05/20 03:22 PM

I have a military collector bringing me a couple of Carcano's in 8mm,according to him they were modified by the Egyptian goverment post WW2.
He wants a couple of blocks made that fit in the magazine well of the rifle making it a single shot, as the clips will not accommodate the 8mm Mauser cartridge. Apparently the blocks were made of wood. I thought I might post here as frankly I can't see anywhere else to post it in the site.
Does anyone know of this modification??

Edited by Rolland (01/06/20 09:49 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: Rolland]
      #341542 - 31/05/20 06:27 PM

done first time in 1944 by a local branch of Krieghoff somewhere north of the italian boarder in the alps. carcano's were rebore/rerifled for 8x57 but because of problems with clips only single shots. after the war made by italian factorys to made drill rifles with the old WW surplus for egypt - same work and 25000 at all,irrc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ud4kLHTE8OQ

there is a firm in australia http://avbtechservices.com.au/berthier/ working on clips for 8x57 in the carcano but I dont know whats the state of affairs now

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Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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DarylS
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Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #341561 - 01/06/20 01:57 AM

A wooden block would be quite easy, I would think. The spring in the box might have to be removed, or not. De-greasing the box and epoxying in the block should be quite simple.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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vykkagur
.300 member


Reged: 28/11/19
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Loc: Canada
Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #341564 - 01/06/20 04:40 AM

Quote:

done first time in 1944 by a local branch of Krieghoff somewhere north of the italian boarder in the alps. carcano's were rebore/rerifled for 8x57 but because of problems with clips only single shots. after the war made by italian factorys to made drill rifles with the old WW surplus for egypt - same work and 25000 at all,irrc.




Exactly. The "Arab" rifles (made for Egypt and also Syria, who rejected them) were not modified in the Middle East, but by Italian factories eager for work post-war, and these rifles are problematic. Two caveats here: While the Krieghoff wartime modifications were well done, the post-war jobs were done by numerous Italian manufacturers and their workmanship , let's just say, "varied". To clear the larger round, material was ground away, and sometimes a significant amount of metal was removed from the bottom of the receiver ring. While the Carcano used very good quality steel (I've heard it said that they used an alloy developed by the Czechs)and was perfectly safe with the loads for which it was designed, the 8x57 is not a lightweight. I have seen photos of some that were so over-ground that I would consider them scrap. Krieghoff was never able to make their conversions reliable repeaters, which is why they were single-shot. I doubt that the Italian shops doing the post-war conversions would be able to do any better, and very few of them were reliable feeding. The Krieghoff's did indeed use wooden blanking blocks in the magazine well. Second caveat: While the materials are strong, I have heard it said that the Carcano design does not have great gas venting in the event of case failure. I have no first-hand knowledge on this matter, but it bears keeping in mind when examining a modified rifle before deciding to fire a heavier cartridge. I'm told surplus Balkan 8x57 can be especially unpredictable, but again, I don't shoot 8x57 so I can't speak from experience. I've had no qualms shooting the 6x54 Carcano with some brisk loads.

One last point: Just because you find an 8mm Carcano stamped "HK" doesn't mean it's genuine. Because they're worth significantly more, the Krieghoff rifles have been counterfeited. Proceed with caution.

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DarylS
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Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: vykkagur]
      #341567 - 01/06/20 08:32 AM

vykkagur - interesting information on the conversions & possible problems with them.

For those thinking of shooting these conversions, the US companies of Winchester and Remington factory loads are loaded to something akin to 35,000CUP & with undersized .321" bullets - maybe 40,000PSI, while the Euro spec. 8x57 is loaded to 57,000psi with .323" bullts.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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lancaster
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Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: Rolland]
      #341571 - 01/06/20 08:03 PM

Quote:

I have a military collector bringing me a couple of Carcano's in 8mm,according to him they were modified by the Egyptian goverment post WW2.
He wants a couple of blocks made that fit in the magazine well of the rifle making it a single shot, as the clips will not accommodate the 8mm Mauser cartridge. Apparently the blocks were made of wood. I thought I might post here as frankly I can't see anywhere else to post it in the site.
Does anyone know of this modification??



would make the block from hardwood - oak - clear it inside for the spring because removing this is not a good idea.

krieghoff would had got maybe better results than changing the rifle for the 8x33 Kurz and use the short 15 rounds magazin for the Sturmgewehr.
I have tried everything and only a CZ 527 magazine was the solution for the 7,62x39 but I was looking for aesthetic also.


--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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vykkagur
.300 member


Reged: 28/11/19
Posts: 223
Loc: Canada
Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: lancaster]
      #341573 - 01/06/20 11:22 PM

Quote:


krieghoff would had got maybe better results than changing the rifle for the 8x33 Kurz and use the short 15 rounds magazin for the Sturmgewehr.
I have tried everything and only a CZ 527 magazine was the solution for the 7,62x39 but I was looking for aesthetic also.





Good point; I never thought of that. I think that might have been the solution. Possibly they had the same idea, but were denied that option because at that point in the war, Germany needed all those magazines and ammo for the Sturmgewehr. Another solution might have been something along the lines of the Steyr M95M: Do away with the enblocs, make a simple box to fit in the magazine well, then load from standard Mauser stripper clips.

Hindsight is great, but we should bear in mind the times. Krieghoff's did all this in a matter of weeks, working under terrible conditions and given no resources. It's a wonder they accomplished what they did.

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Tom_H
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Reged: 13/04/05
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Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: vykkagur]
      #341629 - 03/06/20 03:08 AM

This was being done on the cheap for sure.

Don't forget, there was a Japanese Carcano with bottom metal similar to the Arasaka.
That would have solved the problem entirely.

Checked out a few of them last year when a collection was being broken up and auctioned.

Tom

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Rolland
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Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: Tom_H]
      #343260 - 13/07/20 10:24 AM

For what its worth I finally got my hands on the rifle. The block is not too much of a problem to make .
I used soft pine to make a pattern and duplicated it once fitted in hard maple, as it is easier to machine. It uses the original 6.5 clip to hold it in place and a groove is cut on the bottom for the lifter. a 1/2 inch ball mill makes a perfect groove in the top for the cartridge to feed from. No modifications to the action or clip and it will eject the same out of the top if needed to be removed.
I am not making any claims that this is the correct or authentic way it was done from the factory but
just what will work without modifying the rifle.
I can post photos if interested.

Edited by Rolland (13/07/20 10:31 AM)

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Rothhammer1
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Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: Rolland]
      #343263 - 13/07/20 01:20 PM

Quote:

the clips will not accommodate the 8mm Mauser cartridge.




Found on the 'net:

Carcano En Bloc Modification to 8mm

Carcano analysis by Ian of Forgotton Weapons: Carcano

Othias and Mae: C&Rsenal

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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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vykkagur
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Reged: 28/11/19
Posts: 223
Loc: Canada
Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: Rolland]
      #343301 - 15/07/20 06:48 AM

Quote:

For what its worth I finally got my hands on the rifle. The block is not too much of a problem to make .
I used soft pine to make a pattern and duplicated it once fitted in hard maple, as it is easier to machine. It uses the original 6.5 clip to hold it in place and a groove is cut on the bottom for the lifter. a 1/2 inch ball mill makes a perfect groove in the top for the cartridge to feed from. No modifications to the action or clip and it will eject the same out of the top if needed to be removed.
I am not making any claims that this is the correct or authentic way it was done from the factory but
just what will work without modifying the rifle.
I can post photos if interested.




Yes, please do post some photos, if possible.

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Rolland
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Reged: 31/12/06
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Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: vykkagur]
      #343302 - 15/07/20 11:55 AM

Photos of the blocks, I made one from hard rock maple and the other an unpronounceable tropical hard wood. The grooves lock the clip in place and the lifter keeps the block up against the lips of the clip and seems to hold it in place very secured.

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vykkagur
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Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: Rolland]
      #343342 - 17/07/20 10:05 PM

Very nice job, Rolland! Any range time planned yet?

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Rolland
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Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 281
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Re: 8mm Carcano [Re: vykkagur]
      #343354 - 18/07/20 10:07 AM

No these are not my rifles and I really no too keen shooting these with the 8mm cartridge and a light carbine.

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