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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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paradox_
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Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2
      #333385 - 13/10/19 05:35 PM

I was fortunate to find this gem in recent times.
A high end Model early Model 1900 #234. Note the cartridge release on the outside. Its difficult to say if J Dickson actually built this rifle as typically their records contain their alllocated stock number , ( see trigger guard) but the book entry is blank. This,m told is not unusual for " bought in "items.
All small parts have matched numbers and the stock is also numbered, but in pencil only
A superbly balanced rifle of excellent quality and original finish.
It has the front sight hood ( seen in the parts picture)

I have not encounted a 1900 with the manufactory markings of this one and I believe it pre dates anything I have enconted previously.
I have my thoughts on its origin, but welcome opinions

hope you enjoy the pictures

Best
Eric

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: paradox_]
      #333388 - 13/10/19 08:01 PM



I don't see a 'trapdoor' in the buttstock. Is that common on the M1900?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #333391 - 13/10/19 08:09 PM

Wow, hardly a single blemish, pit mark on it anywhere. Amazing smooth like a super models thigh!

What is the calibre? I can guess but ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (13/10/19 11:20 PM)

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: NitroX]
      #333398 - 13/10/19 11:17 PM

Quote:

Wow, hardly a single blemish, pit mark on its anywhere. Amazing smooth like a super models thigh!

What is the calibre? I can guess but ...



Just visible (and upside down) on Paradox' photo #2 is the stamp, '6.5 M/M', consistent with the 6.5X54 used in the Mannlicher Schoenauer M1900 and M1903 as well as the Y1903 through 1930 'Greek' military MS.

The early MS sporting rifle, carbine, and takedown models corresponded to the MS proprietary cartridges for which they were chambered.

M1903 (also M1900 and 'Greek') - 6.5X54
M1905 - 9X56
M1908 - 8X56
M1910 - 9.5X57 - known to British trade as .375 Nitro Express Rimless

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TexasJohn
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #333402 - 14/10/19 12:19 AM

Almost identical to an un-branded rifle I posted in the Mannlicher section some time back. Does this one have "SAFE" in gold on the opposite side of the safety? Mine does not have the red dot.

John

--------------------
John

"In the Texas Oilfield, everything that does not kill me today, gets another chance tomorrow."

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93x64mm
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: TexasJohn]
      #333415 - 14/10/19 07:18 AM

Wow....amazing piece of kit there Paradox!
The finish on the metalwork & blueing is superb to say the least.
The only thing that gives its age away is the (slight) markings on the stock - & what a beautiful piece of timber that is!
Never been much of a Mannlicher fan......but this one certainly has caught my attention!

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MikeRowe
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: 93x64mm]
      #333423 - 14/10/19 01:22 PM

That is an interesting rifle. I have an en-bloc clip Steyr retailed by Dicksons with a serial number very close to this one. I think it's possible a batch of Steyrs and Mannlichers was made up by an outwork firm very soon after 1900, and they sold them throughout the trade, Dicksons buying some of them.
Another member here has an H&H identical to my rifle, and they both have butt stocks that look like this one.
I do not know if Dicksons had a separate ledger for bought in guns, mine is not in the daybooks either.
I would like to see a picture of the frontsight for comparison.

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Vladymere
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: MikeRowe]
      #333426 - 14/10/19 05:50 PM

"I don't see a 'trapdoor' in the buttstock. Is that common on the M1900? "

A beautiful rifle to be sure.

I suspect that the stock is not a factory original but a replacement, possibly by the firm of John Dickson & Son. I'm not aware of any factory stocks with an ebony or other wood fore end but that doesn't mean it wasn't so. Not being an original stock could very well explain why no butt trap with pockets for a sectional cleaning rod and two cartridges. I also don't think the express sight are factory original.

Having speculated as I have I may have just made an ass of myself as my knowledge of MS rifles is small. I have four factory original rifles from before WWI, a 1903, 1905, 1908 and a 1910. None of these rifle sport express sights. One has a half stock but it is not like the rifle above.

It could be very much Like Mauser though, for the right price they would build what you wanted.

Vlad

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: Vladymere]
      #333436 - 14/10/19 08:29 PM

Quote:


I suspect that the stock is not a factory original but a replacement, possibly by the firm of John Dickson & Son. I'm not aware of any factory stocks with an ebony or other wood fore end but that doesn't mean it wasn't so. Not being an original stock could very well explain why no butt trap with pockets for a sectional cleaning rod and two cartridges. I also don't think the express sight are factory original.





Indeed, British gunmakers did customize and 'have their way' with some M1900. They were essentially prototypes to begin with and and Paradox's is a very low numbered example.

Here's a Gibbs M1900 with a takedown stock of a very different system than that of the Steyr built sporters:




The 'factory' version as used on M1903, M1905, M1908, M1910:




Notice the "Horn cap at the muzzle of sporter type" available from the options list. By 1939 (date of these Stoeger catalog images) there were also 'three leaf express sights' available, at least on the 'High Velocity' (A.K.A. M1925). Paradox's stock does appear different from the 'factory' MS stock of the M1903 through M1910, though.






What I've never seen before is this, which amounts to Osterr. Waffenfabr. Ges-Steyr in English.




That's quite a find, and may lead me to suspect that the action was originally made for a sales sample to be 'shopped' to Britain or the United States in effort to acquire a military contract. That is what M1900s were all about and did result in the Y1903 through 1930 'Greek' models.

Could this be an 'American Eagle Luger' of MS rifles? It would be interesting to know when Dickson & Son did their work on it and for whom.

I did just find a reference from the Great Britain Patent Office Commissioner of Patents' Journal of 1879 where a patent was granted to the "Austrian Small - arms Manufactory, of Steyr [sic]". Perhaps this action was from a rifle submitted for a later British patent?

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #333437 - 14/10/19 10:00 PM

Eric, that is a ripper to be sure, and in very good condition. I must say that I do like the MS rifles with the large round bolt knob a lot.

If you are not very careful you will soon have the worlds largest collection of Model 1900 rifles.

Well done.


Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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paradox_
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #333463 - 15/10/19 01:19 PM

Gentlemen

Here is one blanket response for question thus far.

John -, no the often encounted gols " safe" is absent on this rifle

Mike- The Dickson stock number has been allocated, and can be found in the Dickson record, but its left blank

Vladymere- You are correct, there is not a factory stock, rather it is one bulit by the British Trade.

Roth- youve picked the most unusual feature on the rifle...that of the English translation on the left wall....thank you for your research here.

Matt- Thanks Matt, yes you dont appreciate those round Knobs until you use one!!

Note the only proof marks present are English

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: paradox_]
      #333468 - 15/10/19 09:44 PM

Quote:



Roth- youve picked the most unusual feature on the rifle...that of the English translation on the left wall....thank you for your research here.





Hopefully it's a helpful clue? Here's a link: Patent

Not much there, but it does verify that the British Patent Office used that name for Steyr prior to 1900.

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Louis
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #333476 - 16/10/19 01:41 AM

Congratulations on your new M. 1900, Paradox; superb rifle, nothing else to add!
Louis

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kuduae
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: Louis]
      #333481 - 16/10/19 05:53 AM

That "red dot" safety is certainly a post-1952 replacement, as Steyr started marking safeties this way on their model 1952.
Here is (again) my M1900 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. It is marked "MODELL 1900" on the receiver ring and "STEYR 1901" on the left receiver wall. The Steyr serial number is 98, the second lowest recorded so far. Additionally, it is marked with the George Gibbs, Bristol, number B 3452 on receiver and barrel, on the triggerguard with another, Purdey?, one, A808. Remains of origial London proofs, no Austrian ones. Rechambered to 6.5x55 SE and reproofed by the Birmingham proofhouse in 1983. It came to me as a 27" barreled action only, with the original sights, without a stock. A sorry item, but it came for free, as a present. As you see, my restocking job is not yet completed. It still needs some finer shaping, finishing and checkering.

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MikeRowe
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: kuduae]
      #333483 - 16/10/19 09:43 AM

The front sight ramp is the same as the other two rifles, which coupled with the stock shape confirms my belief it was built up as one of a batch "for the trade". This was very common, and all the makers resold "bought in" guns. The only work Dicksons did was have their name engraved on it.

It doesn't stop it from being a wonderful rifle, though. Just like mine.

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paradox_
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: MikeRowe]
      #333484 - 16/10/19 11:54 AM

Kuduae

The red dot was added as a requirement for import into Australia this earlier this year....sorry that is a bit of a Red Herring.

Thanks Mike, yes you are correct, the Trade bulit and supplied to anyone......however some oare of much better quality than others.

The only unanswered question is that of the English translation. We continue to learn.

Best
Eric

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: paradox_]
      #333486 - 16/10/19 01:17 PM

Quote:

Kuduae

The red dot was added as a requirement for import into Australia this earlier this year....sorry that is a bit of a Red Herring.

Thanks Mike, yes you are correct, the Trade bulit and supplied to anyone......however some oare of much better quality than others.

The only unanswered question is that of the English translation. We continue to learn.

Best
Eric




Yes some manly gun importers have been known to carry bright red nail polish with them to the customs office. And a hammer and punch, to make an indentation for the nail polish.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: paradox_]
      #333489 - 16/10/19 02:10 PM

Quote:

I was fortunate to find this gem in recent times.
A high end Model early Model 1900 #234.



Here's a thread (from a noteworthy and admirable 'site) about M1900 serial #295:

NitroExpress

It was Austrian proofed in 1901, but later suffered a rebore and an alphabet salad of stampings that Kuduae sorted out.

Here's M1900, #198 - rebored and Nazified: M1900 #198

And the thread about your own amazing #373: M1900 #373

It seems that these informative threads and the responses therein (combined with other information) point to origins of several M1900 examples as having been originally built for military trials with several having been reworked to various extent afterward. That would seem to account for examples of M1900 actions, manufactured in Austria by Steyr, with British, Belgian, or other proofs while lacking Austrian proofs. The 'Modell 1900', "Austrian Small-Arms Manufactory Steyr", and other stampings found on some examples reinforce.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: paradox_]
      #333490 - 16/10/19 02:57 PM

Quote:



The only unanswered question is that of the English translation. We continue to learn.





At this point, I lean toward the British military trials or British Patent Office submission theories, "Manufactory" being distinctly British English. Yanks would more likely say 'manufacturer', or simply 'mfg.'.

Research could be interesting. Are records of serial numbers available from those sources?

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paradox_
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: Rothhammer1]
      #333515 - 17/10/19 11:32 AM

Thank you Brian

@Nitro. John I stupidly posted this under the Mauser Index...any chnace you transfer it to the Mannlicher Index.
...just for archiving purposes??

Best

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Aother English Retailed Mannlicher #2 [Re: paradox_]
      #333865 - 27/10/19 12:48 AM

Per request, topic moved to Mannlicher forum.

Curl

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