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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

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mikev
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Reged: 05/02/14
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Loc: ohio

Interesting 1905 . Help ID
#330282 - 19/07/19 05:26 AM

http://www.jaquas.com/gunlist/Details.asp?StockNumber=154941&StockTemplate=0

Never saw one with these sights or proof marks. Can anyone help ID this MS?
It should be a 9x56 but the shop selling it, who are very knowledgeable, are not sure as to caliber.
Thasnks,
Mike

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mikev
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Reged: 05/02/14
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Loc: ohio

Re: Interesting 1905 . Help ID [Re: mikev]
#330289 - 19/07/19 11:28 AM

Well I will try to answer my own question and seek confirmation. The proof marks are British. Birmingham proof. I think it was proved as a 9mm MS with a 245 grain bullet. I am not sure of the the rest of the proof info. Any help appreciated. Any idea as to date? 2.22? the Crown over BNP info I have shows that mark first used in 1954.

Any ideas about the express sights and or British maker or retailer? Thasnk you.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Interesting 1905 . Help ID [Re: mikev]
#330291 - 19/07/19 01:44 PM

Quote:

http://www.jaquas.com/gunlist/Details.asp?StockNumber=154941&StockTemplate=0

Never saw one with these sights or proof marks. Can anyone help ID this MS?
It should be a 9x56 but the shop selling it, who are very knowledgeable, are not sure as to caliber.
Thasnks,
Mike

That listing is rather typical of a U.S. seller or broker regarding a Mannlicher Schönauer as 'one of those funny foreign things'.

The photos do reveal some clues:

The company name was changed from Osterr. Waffenfabr. Ges.-Steyr to Steyr Werke AG in 1926. This receiver was made prior to the change.

The front receiver ring is not marked 'Made in Austria' as it would be if made after 1924, unless made from 1938 - 45 and thus marked 'Made in Germany'.

This rifle was made before 1925. Some or all of the British proof marks are from a later period. If unaltered, it is chambered for 9X56 Mannlicher Schönauer as were all M1905 MS.

The British proofs.

From what the ad shows, it seems to be a nice, unmolested, M1905 save the addition of express sights. The 'uncut' receiver (not modified for scope mounting) is a plus and the original butt plate is still present. Are the cleaning rods included?

The original MS proprietary cartridges, each specific to their model:
M1903 = 6.5X54 .... M1905 = 9X56
M1908 = 8X56 .... M1910 = 9.5X57

2.22?

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mikev
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Re: Interesting 1905 . Help ID [Re: Rothhammer1]
#330296 - 19/07/19 08:46 PM

Rothhammer,
Thank you! That is very helpful information.The cleaning rods are missing. The shop selling this is fairly certain that it has been rechambered but not sure as to what.I have dealt with these folks before, in fact I picked up a 1905 there last year, so I expect that they are correct.
If I find anymore out I will share here.
Thanks again.

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2152hq
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Reged: 20/05/12
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Re: Interesting 1905 . Help ID [Re: mikev]
#330308 - 20/07/19 01:40 AM

The Birmingham Proof House date code (X-B / 2) 1950 rules says the Brit proof was done in 1972
X- 1972
B- Birmingham P/Hs
2- Individual Inspector's #

No way of telling the Month within 1972, They only changed the Letter to indicate the Year change every JAnuary

Proofed for 9x56 M/S cartridge at the time.
2.22 in the cartridge case length in inches.

Of course it could have been altered since then.

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mikev
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Re: Interesting 1905 . Help ID [Re: 2152hq]
#330317 - 20/07/19 07:53 AM

2152hq,
Thanks for the help! My knowledge regarding British proof marks is growing. Can you help with the rest of the marks? I think that 245 represents bullet weight which would be correct for a 9x56ms. Other than that I assume the rest is charge or pressure?
Thanks again.

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2152hq
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Re: Interesting 1905 . Help ID [Re: mikev]
#330322 - 20/07/19 09:52 AM

I believe the marking indicates

...46.5 grains of NC (Nitro Cellulose powder (smokeless powder)
The Crown/BNP also indicated Birmingham Smokeless Powder Proofed.

...245 grain Bullet
The " sign is used under the somewhat poorly stamped GRs right above it to save space I imagine and was just an easy way to mark.

If this rifle had gone thru proof in the early 50's, there would have most likely been an additional marking of pressure.
It would be in English Tons (Tonnes (sp?) and then followed by /per in sq or sometimes the 'sq' is a simple small square block stamp mark. Sometimes the inch stamping is that "/quote mark again.
1 Engl Ton/sq inch = 2240psi

Why the marking is not present I can not say. Perhaps it was dropped at some point in the 60's or 70's. I usually deal with guns proofed much earlier and those Military Surplus proofed right after WW2 and sold on the commercial market. They all seem to have the marking.

Another point is that since the M/S is a foreign made firearm (Not English Mfg), the proof marking themselves would be inside bold circles IF England did not recognize the proof methods and specs that the firearm had undergone when mfg'd.
Birmingham obviously did recognize the Austrian proof of the carbine and the Birmingham proof marks are NOT within circles.
Any US mfg's firearms sold in England, and US Surplus Military arms sold out of service in England to the civilian marked had to be proofed before that sale. Since the USA has no Govt mandated proof, England will not allow any US mfg firearm to be sold commercially (new or used) with out first undergoing UK proof.

These will all show the proof marks inside the Bold Circles you've probably seen on some firearms.

The Birmingham Proof House used a date code symbol starting in 1921.
It changed a bit a few times over the years but is still in use AFAIK.
You can find a chart of it in a google search most likely. I have one in my notes for reference.

London Proof House never used a date code as far as I know

Changes in Proof Law which forced changes in individual marking stamps or adding & deleting some can be used to pin down general era of proofing for either House.

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Rothhammer1
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Reged: 06/01/17
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Re: Interesting 1905 . Help ID [Re: mikev]
#330334 - 20/07/19 03:03 PM

Quote:

The shop selling this is fairly certain that it has been rechambered but not sure as to what.I have dealt with these folks before, in fact I picked up a 1905 there last year, so I expect that they are correct.

Will they do a chamber cast?

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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mikev
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Re: Interesting 1905 . Help ID [Re: Rothhammer1]
#330355 - 21/07/19 03:44 AM

21252hq,
Many thanks for taking the time to explain the proof markings!
I took a look at it this morning and decided to pass as the bore was a little too frosted for me but what an interesting rifle it is. It is engraved with Charles A Heyer and co. Nairobi. He was an outfitter in the early 1900s in Nairobi.From there it made its way to England in the 1970s and to Ohio in the States in 2019! I am pretty sure it was shipped just as it equipped now with the express sights. The 1939 Shooters Bible shows a MS high velocity rifle with express sights so they were available as a factory item.
As to the caliber, I took a resized 9x56 ms brass with me and it would feed about 2/3 of the way. Could be a tight chamber, which I understand is not unusual or something else. I would guess it is a 9x56 but a chamber cast is in order to be sure. I did not ask them to do one as I had decided not to buy it.
Again thanks for the informative responses.
My best,
Mike

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
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Re: Interesting 1905 . Help ID [Re: mikev]
#330383 - 22/07/19 01:59 AM

typical for this dealer is the inscrition on the barrel "Specially Made for Chas. A. Heyer & Co. Nairobi"
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post324807

--------------------
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.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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mikev
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Re: Interesting 1905 . Help ID [Re: lancaster]
#330387 - 22/07/19 04:10 AM

just Chas. A Heyer Co. Nairobi on this one

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