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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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deeangeo
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Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom
Bullet Seating Concentricity - MSch M1903 6.5x54
      #284908 - 06/07/16 05:36 PM

Recently I started reloading for my M1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer and while I can easily get to +/- .0005" concentricity on the case neck/body, the bullet cty is a very different matter and is inconsistent varying between .0025 & .005".

Nothing I do seems to improve matters. This is with the Hornady 160gn RN Interlock bullet.
I haven't yet tested other bullets as supplies of 159/160gn bullets in UK are pretty sparse.

Modern collar or collet dies for this cal/cartridge aren't available, so I use both Redding & RCBS dies.
Any practical suggestions?
I've tried using an expander die to aid matters, but no difference I can see.
Cheers, d

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Bullet Seating Concentricity - MSch M1903 6.5x54 [Re: deeangeo]
      #284912 - 07/07/16 01:11 AM

1/2 a thou is nice on the cases. Sounds as if the alignment of the seating stem is out of whack. Way out of whack.

On the other hand, Walt Berger once won a road trip BR match with ammo that was out .003". It was his bore fouling ammo with poor alignment (for BR ammo) and he'd forgotten to load his 'good' ammo.

Depending on the distance the bullet has to jump, it may be just fine - or not.

The general feeling, is the longer the bullet has to jump, the larger the chance it has to align with the bore and grooves.

Your sizing is perfect - I'd see about getting a Hornady seating die for 6.5. They are generic and will give straight line seating for all 6.5's.

I would even consider getting a 6.5x55 set and simply use them for neck sizing the 54's, which I assume you are talking about?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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deeangeo
.300 member


Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Bullet Seating Concentricity - MSch M1903 6.5x54 [Re: DarylS]
      #284916 - 07/07/16 04:13 AM

Hi Daryl, I don't neck size any cases, always F/L to headspace dimension +/- .001", setting the decap exactly right is the key to minimising run out, but you know that anyway.
It's the bullet runout I need to sort. I'll check the seating stem & see if I can adjust it.

The 6.5x55 seating die from Hornady sounds like it's worth a try though, I'm sure I can borrow one to try out.

I seat the bullet to the canelure & roll crimp; I checked the runout before crimp & after, there's no difference at all, so it's not the crimp having an effect on the runout.
The 160 gn bullet seated & crimped gives an OAL of 2.949", feeds sweetly from mag to chamber & currently shoots 1 1/4" MOA groups, but it should do better.
As long as I can get it down to max .002" or .003" runout I'll be much happier.

I'm pretty sure the propellant charge isn't far from right.
Cheers, d

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (07/07/16 04:26 AM)

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Bullet Seating Concentricity - MSch M1903 6.5x54 [Re: deeangeo]
      #284917 - 07/07/16 06:12 AM

I suspect the problem may lie with the RN bullet. Round nose bullets, not having a point to index on, will not line up as accurately in the seating die. One simple suggestion, which I have found works for me, is to twirl the case with my left hand while slowly raising the ram with my right hand. This seems to align the bullet with the neck more accurately. If that fails to work, a bullet seater which supports the bullet all the way into the case, such as the Bonanza or RCBS bench rest seater, or a straight line seater, like the Wilson, might be your next possible solution.

Personally, I have never found that type of precision to be of much value in a hunting rifle. I always checked the runout of my match ammunition and segregated the best to shoot at 600 yards, back when I was shooting competitively. The deer I shoot nowadays don't seem to mind less than precision reloading.

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deeangeo
.300 member


Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Bullet Seating Concentricity - MSch M1903 6.5x54 [Re: xausa]
      #284919 - 07/07/16 06:56 AM

Thanks xausa, I want to have the excessive runout reduced, so will use all methods I can to achieve that. The majority of rounds with the RN bullet exceed .004" but not .005". In my view that's too much and will not aid accuracy.

I have checked the 140gn SST bullet runout & it's much less at .002" so I'm thinking this could be seater stem related, but will check properly tomorrow. It seems to me the stems could be designed for more 'pointy' bullets, so not so great for RN bullets.
But a good look should give me a better idea.

I do already rotate the case/bullet while seating. Some say it helps, others do not agree. I'll continue to do it anyway since it can't be wrong to do so.
Cheers, d

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

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deeangeo
.300 member


Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Bullet Seating Concentricity - MSch M1903 6.5x54 [Re: deeangeo]
      #284929 - 07/07/16 03:31 PM

Having inspected both my seating dies stems/rods, I conclude I must amend my die choice for each bullet type.

I have used the RCBS seating die with the 160gn RN & the Redding seating die with the 140 gn SST bullet.
WRONG!
The Redding die has a much broader seating cone, where the RCBS is narrower & more designed for 'pointy' bullets.

So, resetting the most suitable seating dies for each bullet choice is my first move to improve matters.
I also ordered a Lyman VLD chamfer tool...it has a 22deg. angle chamfer and will probably aid the flat base of the bullet into case neck. It'll mean I don't have to use the expander die which 'works' the case neck rather more than I like.

Taking your advice Daryl, I've already arranged to borrow a friends Hornady 6.5x55 seating die. His die has the supporting sliding collar aiding bullet alignment.
Looking at the die, from his de-luxe set, the seating rod is 'pointy' and the rather blunt bullet nose of the 160gn RN sits on the edge of the seater rather than 'in' it. The collet works in terms of bullet alignment.

I'm now told there is a set of Hornady de-luxe dies available as a stock item for MSch 6.5x54..now they would seem good if the seater is more rounded for the 160gn bullet.
I'm not sure how true this is though, and finding a set in stock with a dealer (to look at the seater) may prove interesting!

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (08/07/16 05:00 PM)

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deeangeo
.300 member


Reged: 09/05/15
Posts: 207
Loc: United Kingdom
Re: Bullet Seating Concentricity - MSch M1903 6.5x54 [Re: deeangeo]
      #285060 - 11/07/16 05:29 PM

Ooops! That Hornady de-luxe is wrong & should be Hornady Custom Grade.

--------------------
Blaser K95 Luxus Kipplaufbüchse, .25-06 Rem. Schmidt & Bender 8x56 & Nosler 110gn Accubond = Game Over!

Edited by deeangeo (11/07/16 05:30 PM)

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