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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip
      #230503 - 25/05/13 11:12 PM

Here are a few photos of the new toy. The action is a Webley A.& W.C.(The Thomas W. Webley and Thomas Brain Patent No.3053 of 1882), most often referred to as the "screw grip" action.
Chambering is for my favorite cartridge, the .577 x 2 3/4. This rifle is regulated for the 520 grain 'Express' bullet rather than the more common 560 or 570 grain projectile, but is currently shooting the 650 grain Woodleigh Weldcore at 1840 fps with light nitro loads (not so light, actually!).

Here's what she looks like:





Close-ups of the modest engraving on the action bar:





Here are the barrel flats:




...and the breech face showing the Patent spindle:




These two pics show the top of the action with tasteful engraving and reference to the "screw grip" patent:





....and with the breech open:




The replacement butt-stock, although lighter in colour than the fore-end, is rather nice:




The barrel engraving is a little hard to read these days, but states the following across both barrels: "Army & Navy CSL London"
and on the left barrel: ".577/ 2 3/4 Solid Taper Case",
on the right barrel is the load information: "160 grs of C&H No.6 Powder, 520 grs Tapered Express Bullet".




As you can see, this rifle has been exposed to the elements a few times in its 110+ years, most likely in India or Ceylon. Miraculously it has not been messed with, other than to replace the broken or termited buttstock, and remains tight on the face with very good bores.

It is my intention to try and wear it out on our local buffalo population, but I don't expect to succeed. These big Webley doubles were obviously built to outlast a succession of enthusiasts!

...thank goodness!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by CptCurl (27/05/13 08:37 PM)

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tinker
.416 member


Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: Marrakai]
      #230505 - 25/05/13 11:21 PM

Thanks for getting the photos up for us to see!

Have fun trying to wear it out :-)





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Sarg
.400 member


Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil
Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: tinker]
      #230513 - 26/05/13 07:40 AM

Beautiful, you are breaking my heart with this one, just what I have spent many years searching for !

Congratulations again !

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Pseudechis
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Reged: 21/04/08
Posts: 21
Loc: Northern Territory
Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: Marrakai]
      #230533 - 26/05/13 09:59 PM

Marrakai,

Great photos,

No dog hair in the photos for once!!!

Dane

Edited by Pseudechis (26/05/13 10:00 PM)

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: Pseudechis]
      #230562 - 27/05/13 08:18 PM

Thanks Dane.
Your makeshift photographic studio worked a treat!

Here's one I forgot to include, the left barrel engraving is a little clearer:



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

Edited by CptCurl (27/05/13 08:37 PM)

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WildCattle
.275 member


Reged: 22/03/06
Posts: 95
Loc: Northern California
Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: Marrakai]
      #230755 - 01/06/13 03:33 PM

Isn't this an A&W (Anson & Webley) rather than A&WC (Anson & Webley cordite) model?
The bar is shorter on the non-cordite version, which seems to be the case for this gun.
I really like the Webley Screw Grip... It's a wonderful design.
I don't think that I have ever seen a Wm Evans gun that was not a screw grip.
Manton (& Co of course) has used A&W actionned guns even for their 470NEs.

Best regards,
WC-

--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: WildCattle]
      #230800 - 02/06/13 10:46 PM

WildCattle:
My limited understanding of these actions is that the A&W was specifically the screw-grip shotgun action, and that Webley added the "C" to distinguish this heavy rifle action from the shorter/lighter shotgun action. I know that the "C" is generally accepted to mean "cordite", and that this action was used without change for cordite rifles for many decades after this example was made. However I do believe the A&WC action started life in hammerless BP express rifles. This one has what is commonly referred to as the "long bar" action, BTW.

Always learning, though. Perhaps we could compare bar lengths on members' screw-grip DRs and test this theory!

If only the vintage makers had been a little less "secretive" about their trade at the time, we could be a little more definitive today!

Also, anyone know when these actions were first referred to as A&W "C" ?

Can anyone point to a "definitive" reference to distinguish the A&W action from the A&WC ?

Grateful for any input...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.
Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: Marrakai]
      #230968 - 07/06/13 11:32 PM

Marrakai,
That's a very nice rifle! I hope you enjoy it for many years to come. Can you give us some more details such as the barrel length, weight of the gun, ect.? I would also be interested to know what kind of load you worked up for the 650 grain bullet in your gun. Bob

Edited by Birdhunter50 (08/06/13 03:45 AM)

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #231047 - 10/06/13 08:57 PM

Bob:
The rifle has 27-inch barrels and George Caswell weighed it at 10lb 4oz. I weighed it at 10lb 2 oz converting from kgs, George is probably right!

The load data and initial results are published in another thread here.
100 grains of Varget is sending the 650gr Woodleigh downrange at 1840 fps. Yee haa!!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
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Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: Marrakai]
      #232165 - 06/07/13 12:11 PM

Marrakai,
Do you have any idea of what the pressure is on that load? I am currently working on a load for a .600 special rifle. 650 grain hard cast bullet over 113 grains of H4350, that makes a nice load but I am finding that it is leaving unburned powder in the barrels. I may have to go to a slightly faster powder.Any thoughts or ideas would be helpful. Bob

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: Birdhunter50]
      #232337 - 11/07/13 09:57 AM

Bob:
Apologies for late reply, unfortunately I have no way to measure chamber pressure. I can make an educated guess though, based on ballistics and powder burning rate, compared with published data (both measured and archival data in Wrighty's book).

For the .577/650/100Varget load in a 2 3/4 case mentioned above, my guess would be somewhere around 10 tons, give or take. While this would be right at maximum for a BP-proved firearm, I trust that the risk is low in this instance because of the late-manufactured (for BP) hammerless screw-grip action and fluid-steel barrels. Also, I know this has been done locally with an identical rifle in the past: Dave L_'s "Stumpy" was initially re-regulated for a "hot" .577 load (virtually full nitro) after shortening the barrels following an 'accident'.

Please note: I would NOT load this close to maximum with a damascus hammer-gun!

Regarding the partially-burnt powder in the barrels after firing, I found that changing from AR2208 to AR2206 solved this problem completely in the Fat Lady, so I would expect a change from H4350 to H4895 would likely do the same in your rifle. Work up again with the new powder of course, and unfortunately chamber pressure with the slightly faster powder will probably be slightly higher at regulating ballistics, but both are medium burners so should be OK IMHO.

Hope this info is of some use.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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gwh
.333 member


Reged: 28/01/08
Posts: 277
Loc: Cairns Australia
Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: Marrakai]
      #232451 - 13/07/13 09:38 PM

Tony, the new rifle is a lovely looking bit of kit - I look forward to seeing it in the flesh!

--------------------
Hunt hard, shoot straight

"I speak of Africa and golden joys; the joy of wandering through lonely lands; the joy of hunting the mighty and terrible lords of the wilderness, the cunning, the wary and the grim"

Theodore Roosevelt, Khartoum, 1910

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Jd0713
.224 member


Reged: 27/10/17
Posts: 1
Loc: US
Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: gwh]
      #307072 - 31/10/17 07:48 AM

We actually have the serial number after this! I know this is an old thread. I sent you a private message.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Army & Navy .577 Express:- Webley Screw Grip [Re: Jd0713]
      #307074 - 31/10/17 07:56 AM

Nice - cannot think of a better rifle for moose or big bears in the bush.
Should be a hit, on buffalo & scrubs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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