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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
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Loc: Western NC
Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: lancaster]
      #278785 - 04/03/16 11:40 PM

Quote:

two years later...
again a project finished, good feeling

























M 98 and M 88 hybrid, projected by DWM engineers to use so much as possible of the M98 production and the older M88 production just stopped 6 years before





36 years between, the DWM M 1094 Vergueiro and the FEG Budapest G 98/40 but in the end the same rifle - Mannlicher receiver and bolt with Mauser magazine




will test it next week and then it will come with me into the woods

This is a nice looking rifle. I have a similar project in mind. You made a comment that the rifle was heavy; can you tell me how much it weighs?

Also, what modifications to the M98 stock inletting were necessary to achieve a good fit?

Carpetsahib

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lancaster
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #330385 - 22/07/19 02:27 AM

still in use in africa


Small arms recovered in Mali raid
"Two of the rifles are even more antiquated; a Mosin-Nagant M44 carbine (7.62 x 54 mm R) with its distinctive side-folding spike bayonet, and an unusual bolt-action Mauser variant (missing its bolt). This is a Portuguese Mauser-Vergueiro M904/M39 short rifle (chambered for 7.92 x 57 mm), originally part of a 1904 German (DWM) contract for weapons chambered for 6.5 x 58 mm. In 1939, these were shortened and calibre converted, making it possible to ‘feed’ surviving examples with the standardised 7.92 mm Mauser cartridge. This is not a well-known variant of the famous Mauser, and has presumably found its way to Mali from one of Portugal’s former colonial possessions in the region (Guinea-Bissau or Cape Verde)."http://armamentresearch.com/small-arms-recovered-in-mali/

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: lancaster]
      #330442 - 23/07/19 11:15 AM

Quote:

still in use in africa


Small arms recovered in Mali raid
"Two of the rifles are even more antiquated; a Mosin-Nagant M44 carbine (7.62 x 54 mm R) with its distinctive side-folding spike bayonet, and an unusual bolt-action Mauser variant (missing its bolt). This is a Portuguese Mauser-Vergueiro M904/M39 short rifle (chambered for 7.92 x 57 mm), originally part of a 1904 German (DWM) contract for weapons chambered for 6.5 x 58 mm. In 1939, these were shortened and calibre converted, making it possible to ‘feed’ surviving examples with the standardised 7.92 mm Mauser cartridge. This is not a well-known variant of the famous Mauser, and has presumably found its way to Mali from one of Portugal’s former colonial possessions in the region (Guinea-Bissau or Cape Verde)."http://armamentresearch.com/small-arms-recovered-in-mali/



I remember once reading an advert which went something like:

"mercenaries wanted, must supply own rifle and ammo."

I think it was an advert with a contact address somewhere in Kenya.

I remember thinking, now that sounds like a quality gig. Fill ones bandoleer with ammo and when the ammo runs out, run!

The photo above reminded me of that old advert ... I wonder where they get ammo for some of these diverse old rifles from? Not the local gun shop, for sure. Home bush reloads? I wonder what powder charge they use? "Aah, that's about enough!"

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: NitroX]
      #330453 - 23/07/19 02:08 PM

some ammo is more available than other, 7,62x54R floating around like 7,62x51 nato since the days of the cold war. 8x57 is one of the easier to get cartridges I suspect, also today.
sometimes guns are only held because they are a status symbol no matter what kind of gun it was like on this well known picture from somalia with a sturmgewehr 44. the beretta subgun behind in 9mm was probably feed well with ammo than.



remember when this pic came to surface, a german Mpi 38 in the lybian war. owner dont had a magazine but still hold the gun because magazine or not you are only a real man with a gun.



some italian 6,5x52 carcano was and is probably available in the old lybian colony



but I dont know where this guy get 8x50R ammo for his old berthier carabine that must have been a left over from the algerian war.


I suspect that all this old war horses were trade all over north africa for decades by camel caravan and the people who got them with a hand full ammo never thought how to get more ammo.
I suspect also that there are some clever reloader around loading the old brass again for the market dont asking for service pressure.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: lancaster]
      #330455 - 23/07/19 02:26 PM

You see, this is why gun buy backs are actually good.

So all these fellows with useless rifles for which they have no ammo, can sell them off for hard cash, and then buy something they can get ammo for.

Makes sense to me.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: lancaster]
      #330472 - 23/07/19 10:51 PM

BTW those guys are liberals, have deactivated the MP38 by throwing away ts magazine and are now expressing "peace to the world".




BTW when it comes to ammo. If the "gunsmiths" of Peshawar in Pakistan can make from scratch all sorts of firearms, (not necessarily safe to fire though), probably dudes can make ammo as well. Does it matter if everyone twentieth one is a dud or explodes in your face!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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lancaster
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: NitroX]
      #330492 - 24/07/19 05:44 AM

a subgun without a magazine is far and away from being deactivated! you load a round into the chamber, pull the trigger and BANG.
not later than 5 rounds and you are faster than a bolt action magazine rifle.

there is a story with General Lettow Vorbeck, he was on a hunting trip in south - west in the early 1960s and with the farm owner in an area where he was fighting against the herero terrorist in 1905.
he was remeber the fighting very well finding a big stone where he was shooting from once.
says "it was here where I was and than bury the brass in the sand because the herero take them and reload". he start to dig in the sand and old 8 mm brass came to surface.

we had this problem before - where to get the components? http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=323494&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
the herero could got them from britisch dealers in Bechuanaland then.
with no european dealer around anymore you have to be clever. dont believe that bedoine's cant count but most times being illiterates do they have a concept about 7,62mm and 8mmS bullets and the difference? we don't know.
since ww 2 there are modern guns floating across africa because every war left over some and the locals take them. borders are no problem and they overcome them.
hope I don't do wrong when saying the locals there are not very forward looking. when they get a handfull of ammo to the gun its ok for them.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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yumastepside
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Reged: 25/10/15
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: lancaster]
      #333634 - 20/10/19 07:47 AM

Started a similar project myself, not as fancy but generally using components I already had...other than the scope mounts, I bought a 1909 take-off barrel from Roger Vardy and an ejector from a bloke in Queensland, the rest I had.













Total cost so far....$178....Still a bit to do, but getting there!

Roger

Edited by yumastepside (20/10/19 07:55 AM)

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93x64mm
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: yumastepside]
      #333635 - 20/10/19 08:38 AM

Getting there mate!
I'm presuming that it will be in 8x57, so it will certainly have some clout?
Is the block under the front scope bell going to be for the eventual mounting rings, rear sights or both?

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yumastepside
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: 93x64mm]
      #333638 - 20/10/19 09:13 AM

7.65x53 and the rear sight mount.

Roger

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lancaster
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: yumastepside]
      #333643 - 20/10/19 05:04 PM

this is looking very promising! the vergueiro is an overlooked action - dont you think so?
maybe one day I build a vergueiro sporter in 10,75x68 only to see how it works. what is your stock? old M 98

the 7,65x53 is a very interesting cartridge and if I came aross a butchered M 91 argentine mauser there would be a great temptation to start a new project again.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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yumastepside
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: lancaster]
      #333646 - 20/10/19 06:57 PM

Its a very slim, lightweight, small ring BRNO stock, probably a 222. Would the Vergueiro action be strong enough for the 10.75x68?

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.

Edited by yumastepside (20/10/19 06:59 PM)

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lancaster
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: yumastepside]
      #333650 - 20/10/19 11:06 PM

I can't see that the vergueiro withstand less than a mauser 98 that was build by the same man, with the same steel in the same time.
it goes with a 8x57IS? a 9,3x62 and a 10,75x68 will be safe!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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xausa
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: lancaster]
      #333658 - 21/10/19 02:08 AM

Steve Nelson ACGG, of Nelson's Custom Guns, 7430 Valley View Drive, Corvallis OR, 97330, has created the opposite of the Vergueiro: a Mannlicher action and magazine with a Mauser bolt, which he refers to as a Mauserlicher. Steve was kind enough to show it to me and explain the conversion when I visited his shop a few years ago.

Other than adapting the Mauser bolt to fit the receiver, the only other major alteration was to alter the receiver bridge by filling in the slot for the bolt handle, now no longer needed, to allow the use of conventional scope mounts.





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yumastepside
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: xausa]
      #333663 - 21/10/19 06:29 AM

I have seen articles on this one before.....very interesting concept, I wonder if it's as smooth to operate as an MS?

Roger

--------------------
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lancaster
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: yumastepside]
      #333665 - 21/10/19 06:37 AM

the very best of two worlds is not easy to get

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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93x64mm
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: lancaster]
      #333669 - 21/10/19 08:41 AM

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree here - but basically Steve Nelson has created a 'Mauser' with a rotary magazine; even though it started as a Mannlicher.
Guess it could have been the easier route to add the rotary magazine to a Mauser action?
But you must admit his skills are quite extraordinary to achieve this paring to say the least - like a 'Liger' I guess.

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Rothhammer1
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: lancaster]
      #333688 - 21/10/19 10:50 PM

Quote:

this is looking very promising! the vergueiro is an overlooked action - dont you think so?
maybe one day I build a vergueiro sporter in 10,75x68 only to see how it works. what is your stock? old M 98

the 7,65x53 is a very interesting cartridge and if I came aross a butchered M 91 argentine mauser there would be a great temptation to start a new project again.




An interesting article about the Vergueiro used by South Africa's UDF in World War One: Vergueiro

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Citizen of the Cherokee Nation

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50Calshtr
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Re: perfect sunday morning with my Vergueiro [Re: Sarg]
      #333692 - 22/10/19 12:44 AM

Great Job! Some of my favorite rifles are those that I've put together from various bits and pieces. I get more satisfaction hunting with those than some modern whiz-bang that can be had from an idiot store clerk with a handful of money. Enjoy your rifles and the hunts you have with them, hand them down to your children and proudly say "I built this one".
Best.

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yumastepside
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Re: perfect sunday morning with my Vergueiro [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #333710 - 22/10/19 06:41 AM

Thanks RH, a very interesting article, I wonder what they meant by " a fragile rifle "? and thank you 50Cal, not being a wealthy person, nearly all my rifles are " homemade ", and I wouldn't have it any other way.

Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.

Edited by yumastepside (22/10/19 06:45 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: perfect sunday morning with my Vergueiro [Re: yumastepside]
      #333751 - 23/10/19 06:55 AM

fragile must be a printer's error!

looking for a long time to find an old pic of an vergueiro in africa

kropatschek in angola and


G 3 in angola but no pic with a vergueiro
still waiting in a portuguese archive to come to the light


iirc, the vergeiro rifles were sold for cheap money to the old soldiers after the great war and this is today the main source if you looking for an original 6,5x58P because most of the portuguese rifles were rebored for 8x57IS. I believe the south african surplus rilfes were the main reason Kynoch start production of this ammo.



when the schutztruppe visit mozambique in 1916 the vergueiro was a very popular sovenier.














our best!



--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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yumastepside
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Re: perfect sunday morning with my Vergueiro [Re: lancaster]
      #333904 - 27/10/19 04:42 PM

Start of the lever floorplate release made from old Remington shotgun barrel opening lever...



Roger

--------------------
If you live for a thousand years, you still only have one life, don't waste it.

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lancaster
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: lancaster]
      #334105 - 02/11/19 05:34 AM

an older sporter in auction, with double set trigger https://www.dorotheum.com/de/l/6462422/#





--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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lancaster
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Re: Vergueiro sporter project [Re: lancaster]
      #336992 - 25/01/20 04:53 AM

hand-coloured pic with a Vergueiro in africa




probably great war

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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