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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive
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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: lancaster]
      #248245 - 31/05/14 09:27 PM

Quote:

I am sure Kuduae will correct me if I am wrong but that is the 2 1/2" H&H .375, a different cartridge, best, Mike


The .400/.375 Belted Nitro Express aka .375 2 ½” H&H aka .375 Holland Velopex are all the same cartridge, different loads and names only, introduced by H&H in 1905. H&H converted Mannlicher-Schoenauer and Mauser actions with barrels made in England to use this cartridge. Rifles in this chambering were not made by the Steyr factory. H&H most likely ceased making such rifles after they introduced their .375 H&H Magnum in 1912. The proprietary .400/375 was probably already on the way out after Steyr introduced the 9.5x57 M-S aka .375 Rimless Nitro Express aka .375 Westley Richards Accelerated Express aka .375/43/270 WR (proprietary load with the WR Copper Capped Expanding bullet) in 1910. The 9.5x57 as a Steyr factory offering with widely available interchangeable cartridges made the proprietary H&H .400/.375 superfluous. In his book “Mauser- OOSR”, page 238, friend Jon Speed shows a H&H takedown rifle on a Mauser action, chambered in 9.5x57 M-S. As the original case label, “our special solid brass case”, and a chamber cast told us later, it was rechambered from .400/.375 H&H to the more readily available 9.5x57 M-S during the interwar years. The .400/375 had a belt-rim diameter vera close to the standard rimless .473” base, but with a slimmer case body. The “new” 9.5x57 chamber shows an unusually long neck area, left over from the longer .400/375 chamber.

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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
      #248246 - 31/05/14 09:30 PM

Thanks Kuduae, I somehow guessed you might have more info best

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kuduae
.400 member


Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #248247 - 31/05/14 09:39 PM

Quote:

the only other 9,3x53 Swiss rifle I have seen
clearly a M 1908, the Vienna snap mount points at austria as the place it was reworked



IMHO rebarreled in Switzerland during the 1920s – 30s. The barrel, protruding from the foreend, and the front sight are unlike everything I have seen on a Steyr or other Austrian product. The front base of the Vienna snap mount of the 4x Kahles Mignon scope was most likely transferred from the original M1908 8x56 barrel and soldered on the new 9.3x53 one. These scopes and mounts were offered as a “factory option” by Steyr during the 1920s.

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
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Loc: Western NC
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
      #248414 - 03/06/14 10:30 PM

What caliber is the M-S Model 1906 chambered for?

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #248429 - 04/06/14 03:42 AM

Never heard anything about a Mannlicher-Schoenauer Modell 1906. Sometimes some confusion comes from the Steyr habit of marking their militaryy production. Many M1903 rifles in 6.5x54 M-S from the cheaper miltary production line were imported by British gunmakers like Gibbs, Jeffery or H&H, and converted by them into sporters, some to other chamberings. Mannlichers always had the model designation marked on top of the Receiver ring. Military rifles by Steyr were usually marked additionally with "Steyr" and the year of production on the left receiver wall. Sometimes the Brits scrubbed of the model designation from the receiver ring, but left the date on the left wall intact. My own British Mannlichers by Gibbs are marked this:
M95 Mannlicher, receiver ring scrubbed, left wall "Steyr 1899"
M1900 M-Sch, ring "Modell 1900", wall "Steyr 1901"
M1903 M-Sch, ring "Modell 1903", wall "Steyr 1905"
So IMHO someone read "Steyr 1906" on the receiver wall of a British sporter and mistook this for a model designation.

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Igorrock
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Reged: 01/03/07
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
      #248430 - 04/06/14 04:36 AM

M-S Model 1905 has chamfered to 9x56 MS.

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: kuduae]
      #248431 - 04/06/14 04:39 AM

Here is the reason I asked the question: In the book "Mauser Bolt Rifles" by Ludwig Olsen, he has a paragraph on the 6.8 x 57 Chinese cartridge. Here is the entire paragraph: "The 6.8mm cartridge for the Model 1907 Chinese Mauser had a rimless case 57mm long and a 139-gr. pointed bullet of .277" diameter. It was apparently developed by necking down the 7.9mm Mauser cartridge. An illustration of the 6.8mm cartridge case was shown in an Austrian G. Roth catalog of the pre-World War I period. A military Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifle chambered for this cartridge is at the Aberdeen Proving Ground Museum. The marking "Modell 1906" on this rifle would apparently indicate that the Austrian Arms Co. was competing with Mauser for arms contracts from the Chinese."

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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #248440 - 04/06/14 07:39 AM

OK, so there was at least one Mannlicher-Schoenauer marked Modell 1906, chambered for the obscure and short-lived 6.8x57 Chinese cartridge. This was apparently a short run of military test rifles. But the Chinese adopted the Mauser 1907 instead. As the DWM case number 511A shows, it was the 7x57, case # 511, necked down slightly to take a .276" 139gr bullet. Any advantage of this cartridge over the established 7x57 would be imaginary only. No commercial sporters, neither Mannlicher-Schoenauer nor Mauser, are known. Alas, even the Chinese soon rebarreled their M1907 Mauser rifles to 8x57.

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fsrmg1
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Reged: 25/07/03
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Loc: Western Australia
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #248845 - 12/06/14 11:07 AM

I've been finding references to the following:

7x54mm Mannlicher-Schonauer
7.63x54mm Greek Mannlicher-Schonauer

Does anyone know anything about either of these? Perhaps I'll do a separate topic on them.

--------------------
Cheers,

Rich

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Carpetsahib
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Reged: 29/04/07
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Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: fsrmg1]
      #252029 - 13/08/14 04:09 AM

Quote:

I've been finding references to the following:

7x54mm Mannlicher-Schonauer
7.63x54mm Greek Mannlicher-Schonauer

Does anyone know anything about either of these? Perhaps I'll do a separate topic on them.

Am I correct in assuming these cartridges are based on the 6x54 MS? Perhaps simply necked up?

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fsrmg1
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Reged: 25/07/03
Posts: 158
Loc: Western Australia
Re: Mannlicher Schoenauer Calibers [Re: Carpetsahib]
      #252036 - 13/08/14 05:23 AM

They could be. There is reference that the 7x54mm was a shorter version of the 7x57mm based on that case head size, but there could also be some as sort of a wildcat of the parent 6.5x54mm case for shot out bores. Same goes for the 7.63x54mm Greek, it could simply be the Greeks changing the name of the captured Turkish 7.65x53mm rifles, or again an experimental calibre to open up worn out bores with the same case to increase service life on the cheap. Sort of like the Italian 7.35mm Carcano.

--------------------
Cheers,

Rich

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