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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mannlicher Discussion forum & Archive

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JDL
.333 member


Reged: 25/12/10
Posts: 252
Loc: Louisiana
Thoughts on accuracy?
      #179595 - 22/04/11 03:43 AM

I'm new here and have just finished reading every thread on these magnificent rifles but curiously, I didn't notice anything about accuracy.

I was going through my range session journal for my MCA .30'06 and found that any load I have tried has produced an average of 1.5" to 1.75" groups. The average is obtained from 10 groups each. Oh, I have had that exceptional (bragging) group of around one half MOA but, it seems in the long run, my rifle is dependable for one and a half to one and three quarters MOA.

It seems that by today's standards, this is awful and I've even heard some say that if a rifle won't shoot 1" or less that it is unworthy to hunt with. I have never missed an animal on the first shot with my '06 and can't remember having to shoot anymore than once. For the last 43 years, my longest shot has been 125 yards because I hunt the thick places where a longer shot would be unseen. That is why I'm still kicking myself for not buying a MCA carbine in .358 Winchester 6 years ago, when I could afford it.:(
So I was just wondering, how accurate is you Mannlicher?


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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Thoughts on accuracy? [Re: JDL]
      #179598 - 22/04/11 05:13 AM

Hello JD,

My standards are based on the worst group a rifle will dependably produce, rather than an average. The parameter I’m trying to estimate is, where can I depend upon the next shot to go? If I can reasonably believe that the next shot at a game animal will be a killing shot, I’m satisfied the rifle is up to the task. That decision depends on the worst group and the range.

For example, if your records indicate that your Mannlicher will dependably produce groups no worse than two inches, then you could reasonably take shots on deer at 300 yards (assuming the skill at field shooting, range estimation, and wind doping, of course). On the other hand, a rifle that sometimes produces three-inch groups should be limited to 200 yards or less, even if the average is smaller. You may have different views on the actual numbers, but the method is what I’m trying to illustrate (I'm actually more conservative than this example might suggest).

My point is, neither the best group nor the average of groups will allow you to make good decisions. If the best group is 1/2 inch, can you depend upon it? If the average is 1.2 inch, can you be sure the next shot won’t be farther out than that? But if your worst group (of many) is 2 inches, you can be reasonably sure of where your next shot will go.

Take care, Tom

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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Phillip
.300 member


Reged: 31/05/10
Posts: 174
Loc: North Carolina
Re: Thoughts on accuracy? [Re: Tatume]
      #179603 - 22/04/11 07:59 AM

Well said and same rule I have followed for many years. At the yardage I hunt with the M/S carbines I've not been worried about groups,just the consistant "first" shot......

The last twenty years my tracking skills have deminished to only fair...

--------------------
My rule of life prescribed as an absolutely sacred rite smoking cigars and also the drinking of alcohol before, after and if need be during all meals and in the intervals between them.
-Winston Churchill


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Thoughts on accuracy? [Re: Phillip]
      #179639 - 22/04/11 10:30 PM

When I began shooting a centerfire rifle back in the late '50's, the "minute of angle" standard was the Holy Grail for varmint rifles and target rifles. Factory Model 70 Winchesters in calibers .30 and above were not expected to shoot MOA groups, and in most cases did not. Glass bedding was a thing of the future and bench rest shooting was in its infancy.

Since then, a lot has changed. Rifles have been designed which are more inheritantly accurate and shooting a MOA group with an out of the box factory rifle is no longer anything to marvel about. Applying those standards to rifles made earlier makes no sense to me.

When I shoot my MS carbines off the bench, I don't treat them the way I would one of my target rifles, which are expected to fire respectable ten shot groups rapid fire in time limits of 60 to 70 seconds. I usually take two or three carbines with me to the range and set up a multi bull target. I then shoot the rifles alternately, giving each some time to cool between shots, This practice tends to shrink five shot groups, but not usually to MOA size.

However, I am shooting with hunting scopes, not high power target or varmint scopes. My hunting scopes generally have post and crosshair reticles and are no greater power than 4X or 5X, not ideal for shooting tiny groups. If my 6.5X54 MS carbine keeps all its shots inside the 3" X ring of the NRA 200 yard high power target, then I am more than pleased.

This applies equally to my 1930's vintage Mauser Model S sporters, also full stocked.

Older rifles can be made to shoot better with glass bedding and other accuracy related tweaking, but I prefer to shoot them as they are, and limit my shots to ranges I can be reasonably sure of getting a lethal hit.

There is a kind of high power rifle competition which has recently gained in popularity, sponsored by the Civilian Marksmanship Program. It involves shooting "vintage" military rifles at relatively short range (200 and 300 yards), and the rules require the use of military rifles in "as issued" condition. No glass bedding or target sights. Barrels can be replaced, but only with barrels identical in dimension to the original, and weight of trigger pull must conform to the military standards. It is a challanging form of competition, both for the experienced shooter and the novice, but it gives present day competitors a good taste of what it was like to shoot when the older rifles were on the cutting edge of technology.

Hunting with unaltered "vintage" hunting rifles provides the same experience for me.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Thoughts on accuracy? [Re: xausa]
      #179683 - 23/04/11 04:33 AM

With today's bullets, most rifles with descent bores and bedding, even those made around the turn of the 20th century, will group in 1 1/2" or less with monotonous regularity.

My old 9.3's are case in point - both 1920's era, the little 57mm case with a great bore, the 62mm with some pits, yet both shoot into an inch or better, depending on the bullets used, even .375's sized down to .367".

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Thoughts on accuracy? [Re: DarylS]
      #179686 - 23/04/11 04:51 AM

What critter are you shooting? Back in the early 80's we got into prairie dog shooting and our varmint rifles needed to be sub-moa because the target was only 3" wide and the shots where out to 250 yards, Think about it ....

I shoot deer and larger now, 1-2 moa is fine. I rather focus on my marksmanship.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Thoughts on accuracy? [Re: bonanza]
      #184454 - 23/06/11 11:41 PM

JDL,

Welcome to a new member!

Quote:

That is why I'm still kicking myself for not buying a MCA carbine in .358 Winchester 6 years ago, when I could afford it.:(





There's something to like in the M-S .358 MCA carbine. Here are some photos of the one I bought several years ago. These are not my photos, but are photos of the rifle I bought:















In regard to the subject of this thread, I would rate the accuracy of this .358 at approximately 1.5 MOA, though I haven't tinkered with various loads.

Anybody have information on the number of these made in .358 Win.?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26994
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Thoughts on accuracy? [Re: bonanza]
      #184463 - 24/06/11 01:55 AM

What rifles are capable of and what they need in the way of accuracy, are often 2 different things entirely. As you say, 1 to 2 moa is plenty - for most big game hunting by many of us.

I prefer, or rather demand my hunting rifles have the capability to shoot into 1 1/2" or less at 100 meters off the bags. Iron's or scoped, that accuracy standard stands. This is due to the odd chance, I might have to shoot at longer than normal range - so I want the accuracy - if that were to happen. It hasn't yet, but you never know. If they will shoot into 1/2" like my .375 and my .45 Sharps - hey - no complaints from me.

My 'rat' rifles for gophers MUST, however be capable of shooting into 3/8" @ 100 meters - they all do, even the .17 rimfires, which will shoot into 1" at 200yards.

That Manlicher in .358 would be a superb hunting rifle. A 250gr. at 2,200fps is an amazing killer of large NA game - all of it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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JDL
.333 member


Reged: 25/12/10
Posts: 252
Loc: Louisiana
Re: Thoughts on accuracy? [Re: DarylS]
      #184475 - 24/06/11 06:41 AM

Thanks for the welcome CptCurl. That is a fine looking carbine and is like the one I let get away excepting the scope and mounts. I just wish I could do a do-over on that one!

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CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5284
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Thoughts on accuracy? [Re: JDL]
      #184483 - 24/06/11 07:58 AM

The scope and mounts add quite a lot, in my opinion. Part of the reason I fell hard for it.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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