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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
Posts: 1792
Loc: middle of Germany
Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: xausa]
      #157931 - 31/03/10 09:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'll have to check on this, but I believe Bell's last article in the American Rifleman concerned the joy of deer stalking in Scotland with the (then) new .220 Swift cartridge.




The American Rifleman, January, 1950, page 29. "The Neck Shot"

Of course, the .220 Swift was no longer "new" by then, except perhaps in Scotland.




The American Rifleman , December, 1954, page 27. "Small Bores Versus Big Bores"
Caption under the above photo of Bell: "This is perhaps the last article written by W.D.M. Bell..."

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kuduae
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Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: kuduae]
      #162896 - 28/06/10 06:06 AM

See also this thread:
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=67765&an=0&page=0#Post67765


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CarlsenHighway
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Reged: 19/03/09
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Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: kuduae]
      #172061 - 25/11/10 10:19 AM

Just for clarity since I have noted some people confused sometimes about which model of Mannlicher he was using, the Schoenauer action or the older model by Gibbs,
I have found that Bell used a Mannlicher Schoenauer carbine for shooting elephants, probably the one in the American Rifleman article - (later gave it up in favour of the .275 Rigby because he said the little rifles were too 'delicate') but he also said they he used the ealier model of Gibbs Mannlicher for hunting for the pot while on safari, and that he had to use that particular rifle as a single shot because he lost the stripper clips for it. (You know the model I mean - I forget now)
He probably did this becuase the sights on the rifles would have been regulated for differetn ammo, - the 'elephant rifles' for the solid ammo and the older model Gibbs for softpoints.
(This last is just my speculation after reading where he said that the first thing he did whenever he went to aFrica was put up some targets and file all of his gunsights till they were spot on. This also brings to mind the notion that whenever he went on safari he would take new rifles with him. This sort of bolstered by my noting that someone had the records from Rigby that showed that he had bougth 6 x .275 Rigby mausers from them over the years)
He actually started out with 2 x .303 lee enfield sporters made up by his friend the gunmaker Joeffrey, then went to the 6.5x54 Mannlicher, then he started witht he .275 Rigby (7x57), then he went to the .318 Westley richards in a double rifle, but had trouble with ammunition for it (the actual rifle is owned by someone on the forums today and the left barrel has a serious headspce problem - hence the cases splitting) so he went back to the .275 Mauser.
He also shot elephants with a large bore double rifle too...he did a lot of things, people sort of forget we are talking about a man's life work here...if someone came to write about me one day fifty years from now and characterise me from what caliber I used for hunting, well, I think they would have a hard time knowing where to start....

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jc5
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Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #172096 - 26/11/10 02:11 AM

Quote:


He actually started out with 2 x .303 lee enfield sporters made up by his friend the gunmaker Joeffrey....




Where do you come by this info that Bell got his .303 sporters from Jeffery? I checked the books "Bell of Africa" and "Wanderings" but didn't find anything on where he got them. Maybe I missed it, or (I hope) there's another source that I'm missing? I would love to know for certain.

Thanks!

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Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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CarlsenHighway
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Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: jc5]
      #172109 - 26/11/10 09:10 AM

I think I got that from another book game records of hunting in africa, I think that was where I got it from. The author corresponded with him not just about the elephants he shot but also buffalo and lions and so forth. He included Bells comments about it all and its all quite fascinating.
I may have run those recollections together, I remember he went out for elephant first with 2 .303's, and I know he was friends with Jeffery the gunmaker in Scotland and he says he was familiar with all kinds of firearms when he was young from shooting them at the range witht he gunmaker when doing his testing.
Bell shot a lot of buffalo for meat for his men, he made mention that the rifle he called a high power .22 was erfectly good at this task at head shooting them. He shot about 50 lions from memory, and he noted that he shot them almost entirely because they were upsetting his porters.
I recall also that out of the 1011 elehpants he shot, I think it was either 50 or 70 were cows, and these animals were almost all shot because they were belligerant.
I will look it up again if you like.

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kuduae
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Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #172116 - 26/11/10 10:38 AM

CarlsenHighway, your information is second hand hearsay at best and pretty much muddled up! Part of this was already dicussed in another thread, see
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....e=1&fpart=2

Bell owned at least two Mannlichers. Let's go back to the roots. To quote W.D.M.Bell's own book "Karamojo Safari", Prologue:
"The first rifle I used in Africa against anything larger than a rabbit was a single-shot falling block .303. It had a side lever and was a poor extractor, but was light, handy, beautifully sighted by Fraser of Edinburgh...(foolishly he traded this for a single-shot .450 BPE, a move he deeply regretted)....My next rifle was a .303 Lee-Metford ten-shot...In the course of time I acquired a long-barreled .256 Mannlicher, stocked and sighted (iron sights, but extremely refined) by Gibbs of Bristol. I did not use this rifle on elephant; I don't know why unless it was that I had only soft-nosed bullets. It was not until later that I got a .256 Mannlicher-Schonauer and used it on elephant. I used the long Gibbs -a most beautiful rifle- entirely for meat-getting. And what a deadly weapon it was!....Just to give an idea of this sort of thing, the donkey headman demands four hundred skins for donkey saddles…..This particular trouble was generally cured by nine or ten giraffe; failing them, a score or so of zebra or, more rarely, by a dozen buffalo. That Gibbs certainly had a full-time job to do. I don't think that even now a better rifle could be found for that particular work." (end of quote)

As Gibbs had a very distinctive style, quite different from Jeffery's, Bell's Gibbs "Old model .256 Mannlicher" probably looked like this one of 1899 vintage, marked "G.Gibbs, Bristol"
(Quote Bell again):
"At the same time I got the .256 I also acquired the first rifle I had made especially for me - a .275 (7mm) Mauser by Rigby of London. It was still in the days of the round-nosed bullet, and luckily for me the ammo was good, sound, reliable, German DWM stuff,powder,case,cap and bullet…..Without fault or hitch, misfire or hang-fire, that little rifle slew some eight hundred bull elephant besides scores of buffalo, a few rhino, and an occasional lion. Never once did a soft-nosed bullet pollute that perfect barrel….(end of quotes)..Only later, "As prosperity descended upon me," Bell obtained a "very refined little Mannlicher-Schoenauer .256 with a goodly store of solids" from Fraser of Edinburgh. He rarely used this rifle because the ammo of Austrian make, Roth or Hirtenberger, was unreliable. This is likely the M-S carbine shown above".
BTW, Jefferies was not based in Scotland, but in London…

Edited by kuduae (26/11/10 10:42 AM)


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CarlsenHighway
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Reged: 19/03/09
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Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: kuduae]
      #172212 - 28/11/10 10:40 AM

Ha, yes, excellent post. I stand suitably corrected, and thank you for it!

--------------------
If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuable to you for the rest of your life.
Mark Twain

Edited by CarlsenHighway (28/11/10 10:43 AM)


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CarlsenHighway
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Reged: 19/03/09
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Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #172328 - 29/11/10 10:30 PM



Out of general interest I will put up some comments from the Big Game REcords book 1931, of which the author corresponded with WDM Bell:



(Regarding buffalo)
F. C. Selous has said: "as regards viciousness
I should be inclined to put the buffalo third
on the list ", and W. D. M. Bell who has shot
them in East, West and Central Africa has
described them as " worthy game in thick stuff
but ludicrously easy things to kill in open
country ".
Mr. W. D. M. Bell, whose opinion of the buffalo
I have already quoted, has probably shot more of
these animals than any other man. In the course
of his career as a hunter he has killed between
600 and 700.
In connection with the above I will now quote
from information that Mr. Bell has kindly
supplied me with: *" In parts they (buffaloes)
were the regular ration for the camp. I remem-
ber killing 23 out of 23 with a high velocity .22
rifle partly to see how effective the tiny 80 grain
bullet was but chiefly because meat was required.
I must have killed between six and seven hundred
of these animals in all. Their hide was a con-
stant trade article. Cut into sandal and shield
sizes they never failed to attract an abundant
supply of flour'.
Lest the novice or moderate shot should be en-
couraged by the above statement to attack the
dangerous game of Africa with a .22 rifle, I feel
it should be stated that Mr. Bell is probably one
of the most brilliant big-game shots that has ever
lived. The high velocity .22 rifle in the hands of
such an expert may well be an adequate weapon,
but it is usually regarded as in the extreme of
small bores for use against dangerous game.


Mr. W. D. M. Bell, whose career as an elephant
hunter I have dealt with in the first chapter, has
kindly supplied me with the following notes on
his experiences with rhinoceroses in Equatorial
Africa: " Regarding my bag of black rhino I
find that out of a total of 63 killed no less than
41 were shot when presenting some sort of
menace to either myself or to a line of porters or
to an encampment. Of the remainder only three
were killed for food, thus indicating the richness
of the other and better meat harvest, while the
remainder were chiefly killed for making sandals
or for rewarding natives with shield pieces. In
my time the horn was not worth taking unless of
unusual size."

"During my elephant hunts west of the Nile on
the banks of that river the white rhino was very
plentiful. The greatest number I ever saw in one
day was eleven but I saw some every day. They
were quite inoffensive, unlike the pugnacious
black, and hardly ever required shooting. Other
meat was plentiful and I killed three only."

"With regard to lions I merely killed any that
caused annoyance, such as roaring round camp, stampeding
porters, and so forth. The total so killed is 25."
Leopards he shot, when he came across them,
provided he was not close to elephants at the
time, or by waiting for them at water-holes, etc.
Mr. Bell shot 16 leopards during the course of his
hunting career. I have already indicated in the
chapters devoted to African elephants and
African buffaloes that Mr. Bell is a rifle shot of
outstanding ability, it is therefore particularly
interesting to know his views on lion hunting,
I quote the following from his most excellent
book, 'The Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter" ,
in which he says : " The reason of the high
mortality among those who hunt lions casually is,
I think, the simple one of not holding straight
enough. Buck -fever or excitement, coupled with
anxiety lest the animal should slip away, is
probably the cause of much of the erratic shoot-
ing done at lions. This frequently results in flesh
wounds or stomach wounds, which very often
cause the lion to make a determined charge; and
there are a great many things easier to hit than
a charging lion. Great care should be taken to
plant the bullet right. The calibre does not
matter, I am convinced, provided the bullet is in
the right place. Speaking personally, I have
killed sixteen lions with .256 and .275 solid bullets,
and, as far as I can recollect, none of them
required a second shot ".

--------------------
If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuable to you for the rest of your life.
Mark Twain


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pablo_mauser_66
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Reged: 01/03/07
Posts: 80
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Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: CarlsenHighway]
      #172359 - 30/11/10 08:16 AM

hhhmmm.....reading the above post gives me the feeling that Bell would have won multiple Gold medals had he competed in shooting events at the Olympic games ! note to self, must read more about Bell.

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rigbymauser
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Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: kuduae]
      #172401 - 01/12/10 12:00 AM

Quote:

CarlsenHighway, your information is second hand hearsay at best and pretty much muddled up! Part of this was already dicussed in another thread, see
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....e=1&fpart=2

Bell owned at least two Mannlichers. Let's go back to the roots. To quote W.D.M.Bell's own book "Karamojo Safari", Prologue:
"The first rifle I used in Africa against anything larger than a rabbit was a single-shot falling block .303. It had a side lever and was a poor extractor, but was light, handy, beautifully sighted by Fraser of Edinburgh...(foolishly he traded this for a single-shot .450 BPE, a move he deeply regretted)....My next rifle was a .303 Lee-Metford ten-shot...In the course of time I acquired a long-barreled .256 Mannlicher, stocked and sighted (iron sights, but extremely refined) by Gibbs of Bristol. I did not use this rifle on elephant; I don't know why unless it was that I had only soft-nosed bullets. It was not until later that I got a .256 Mannlicher-Schonauer and used it on elephant. I used the long Gibbs -a most beautiful rifle- entirely for meat-getting. And what a deadly weapon it was!....Just to give an idea of this sort of thing, the donkey headman demands four hundred skins for donkey saddles…..This particular trouble was generally cured by nine or ten giraffe; failing them, a score or so of zebra or, more rarely, by a dozen buffalo. That Gibbs certainly had a full-time job to do. I don't think that even now a better rifle could be found for that particular work." (end of quote)

As Gibbs had a very distinctive style, quite different from Jeffery's, Bell's Gibbs "Old model .256 Mannlicher" probably looked like this one of 1899 vintage, marked "G.Gibbs, Bristol"
(Quote Bell again):
"At the same time I got the .256 I also acquired the first rifle I had made especially for me - a .275 (7mm) Mauser by Rigby of London. It was still in the days of the round-nosed bullet, and luckily for me the ammo was good, sound, reliable, German DWM stuff,powder,case,cap and bullet…..Without fault or hitch, misfire or hang-fire, that little rifle slew some eight hundred bull elephant besides scores of buffalo, a few rhino, and an occasional lion. Never once did a soft-nosed bullet pollute that perfect barrel….(end of quotes)..Only later, "As prosperity descended upon me," Bell obtained a "very refined little Mannlicher-Schoenauer .256 with a goodly store of solids" from Fraser of Edinburgh. He rarely used this rifle because the ammo of Austrian make, Roth or Hirtenberger, was unreliable. This is likely the M-S carbine shown above".
BTW, Jefferies was not based in Scotland, but in London…




Funny enough.I have read the same book as well. The .303 cal is mentioned more than anything else in that book. The socalled .303 from Jeffery`s were not sportingrifles, but were of military pattern made by BSA sold from Jeffery´s only.


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jc5
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Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: rigbymauser]
      #172417 - 01/12/10 04:10 AM

Where do you come by this info that Bell got his .303 rifles from Jeffery?

Before WWI, Bell had used a Lee Metford (see "Bell of Africa, p.18). He doesn't say whether this was in a sporter or a military configuration. After the war, Bell returned to Africa with a pair of .303 Lee Enfield rifles. I think the following excerpt from page 29 of "Bell of Africa" shows pretty clearly that Bell's Lee Enfield rifles were sporters:

...
"My war experience had taught me that the British .303 Lee Enfield rifle was a useful weapon, and I thought that, used with the 215 grain solid jacketed bullet, it would serve me well. I successfully resisted the blandishments of the famous gunmakers with their wonderful illustrated catalogues showing the effect on big game of their marvellous wares. For my first real venture I backed my opinion that it was more where you placed the bullet than that bullet's particular striking energy, muzzle velocity, or anything else. So I acquired two sporting models of the .303, each with the ten-shot magazine. In fact they were the military arm with the barrel cut down a bit, and sporting pistol grip stocks. They cost £8 each."
...

I wouldn't infer from Bell's statement that they were simply cut-down military models. Bell wasn't concerned with proof marks and broad arrow stamps. He wouldn't pay much attention to whether the butt socket was marked with a crown and date, or just "BSA Co." I think Bell was simply trying to explain that they were basically the same as the military action. Note that he says "the military arm" (i.e., the pattern), not "ex-service rifles."

I will deal with this topic more fully in the Lee Speed book, but in several years of searching, I have not found any evidence that anyone was doing sporter conversions of ex-military rifles before the mid-1920s. If a civilian owned a Lee Metford or Lee Enfield before WWI, it's almost certain that he either purchased it as a commercial model... or stole it! If Bell's Lee Enfields were indeed ex-service rifles, someone put pistol grips on them, and this just doesn't make any sense from a cost perspective. In my opinion, Bell's Lee Enfields (and his earlier Lee Metford, for that matter) were commercial models made by BSA or LSA. His Lee Enfields were sporters, and his Lee Metford could have been either a sporter or a military pattern.

It is certainly possible they were retailed by Jeffery, but I am eager to learn what the evidence is for this. (I'm not disputing it, I just want to know.)

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: jc5]
      #172451 - 01/12/10 10:34 AM

Here is a photo of a Lee-Speed from Bell's last article "Small Bores Versus Big Bores" in American Rifleman December 1954. Note, the caption doesn't say "My Lee-Metford", so it may be another rifle merely used for illustration.


Edited by CptCurl (01/12/10 10:39 PM)


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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark
Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: jc5]
      #172552 - 03/12/10 07:11 AM

Quote:

Where do you come by this info that Bell got his .303 rifles from Jeffery?






I read it in Karamojo Safari. Bell mentions that before he wanted to go to Africa the second time( right before leaving) he had to get 2 .303`s and they were of military pattern. Bell loved the 10 shot the .303 enfield gave him.
I will look it up here later, and post tomorrow.

Okay: Bell of africa page 29 1st ed( 1960):

So I acquired two sporting models of the .303, each with the ten-shot magazine. In fact they were the military arm with the barrel cut down a bit, and sporting pistol grip stocks. They cost £8 each."
...

I have interpred the " Military arm" as military pattern. It has been 4-5 years ago since I last read it .

On page 42 he mentions his personal rifles...A .303 lee Enfield...a .275 rigbymauser.. and a double 450/400 + a mauser pistol named " bom-bom"





Edited by rigbymauser (04/12/10 02:32 AM)


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gunsmith
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Re: Bell's Mannlicher [Re: xausa]
      #182453 - 25/05/11 02:57 PM

I am so glad to see the interest in Walter. He would have enjoyed it.To have people learning from his books almost 60 years form his passing, woould have made him proud. He was a fine gentleman, brave hunter, and fantastic shot.
His ashes were scattered in the garden at Corriemollie. May he hunt Africa forever in the afterlife. This is the land he really loved.
My book will be out when all the thousands of bits of info I have colleted on him are compiled, and forwarded to the publisher. I think the book is going to be a picturial of Bell, his guns, life, and adventures. I hav read Bell of Africa, and really cannot do better as a biography, other than straighten out some slight errors in his time line, and family relations.
He received 2 MC,s. He fought in East africa under General Smuts. He then went to Solonka, where he preformed well, and was discharged with Nervous asthma. Bell says it was because of the Malaria, and an unnammed malady he aquired while in the service. I have his discharge papers.


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